Tuesday, May 24, 2005

The Limits on Religon

The previous point mentioned my reservation about secularists pushing their values on me. If you want to be secular this is up to you. This does not make you smarter or
more moral then I just different. I accept that religion will always be ethnocentric
and is not PC.

I do not have a problem with denominations that say as a non Christian I am hellbound. I do not have this problem comming from a mosque as well . Thus I do not understand the Fury of the Gay rights activists at churches that do not accept their agenda. The recourse is to find a Church or temple that is more Gay friendly and there are plenty. Life is unfair and everyone does not get every wish under the sun.
I would love to paint like Renoir but the problem is I have not one iota of talent.

However I do think the limit is reached when a religion starts advocating violence.
Thus that Redneck Church that 167 rails on would be endangering human rights if it
advocated killing Gays or assaulting them. They do have the right to say homosexuals
will burn in hell. They do not have the righy to create a lynch mob or a pogrom.

Thus my problem in this country is that there are some Mosques that advocate violence
in their sermons. If one wants to reside in this country there are some basic resposibilities .

Number 1 Your religious freedom ends when one you endanger the lives of others.
Number 2 Remember there are other religions and lifestyles be respectful as possible.
Number 3 Obey the laws of the land
Number 4 Residing in the USA is not a right unless you were born here. If you violate the laws out you go.


Jason_Pappas said...

That’s interesting that you “do not have a problem with denominations that say as a non Christian I am hellbound.” Some people would certainly take offense. Personally I have no problem either since I’m not religious and don’t take it too seriously. I also have no desire to change people’s religion – as long as they respect other people’s rights and we can deal with matters in a civil manner (your main points).

Still, the attitudes of some religious people are funny. I remember visiting friends in Borough Park when one fellow mentioned being the chosen people. He remembered I wasn’t Jewish and got a little defensive “well we are, you know.” I just smiled and said, "sure, sure." I know people who are bothered by this but it’s no skin of my ass.

This reminds me of the Mel Gibson interview where he said his wife, not being Catholic, was going to hell. Hey, that’s between him and his wife. And that reminded me of the Seinfeld episode where Elaine is upset that her boyfriend believes she is going to hell because she has not been “saved?” She’s upset because he’s not trying to convert her and doesn’t care she is going to hell.

Speaking of Catholics, I was talking to a woman who converted from Mormonism to Catholicism. She said her Mormon friend told her that he’s sorry to hear that she’ll be spending eternity in “the slums of heaven.” I don’t know if this is a personal belief or they preach this. In any case, I thought it was funny.

Some people get upset, but perhaps living in New York City all my life I’m not too chagrinned at what people think about me or my afterlife. But I am a bit touching about people flying planes into our buildings.

beakerkin said...

Living in NYC exposes one to various cultures and religions. One generaly learns to accept the differences. I have no problem with Chasidic Jews who dress differently and largely wish to be left alone.

I do have a problem with flying planes into buildings and blowing up office buildings. We do have a Muslim woman who has visited the site her name is Vavoom. She is not the problem.

The problem is the failure to take a look at history. Islam was not spread peacably and people were treated as second class citizens.
This is true in large parts of the Muslim world.

Islamic Americans hurt themselves in the following ways.

1 There can be zero equivocation about 9-11 it was a crime. The cospiracy and excuse talk doesn't
help. I do not want a list of reasons there are 3000 dead, no excuses.

2 Stop excusing terror as a valid tactic. Attacking military targets
is guerilla warfare and fine . Blowing up dance clubs is terrorism.

3 Stop sanitizing Islamic history.
This is as absurd as me saying
there was no slavery or that the Native americans killed themselves.

4 Tell americans I speak for myself. I do not need CAIR to talk for me.

5 Understand that freedom of speech is my birth right . If you do not like my speech on Assyria make your own. Never threaten violence.

6 Cooperate with the FBI in terror
as these people will create a backlash if we are hit again.

7 Your diversity does not allow you
to make Holocaust Jokes and it works both ways . I am not allowed to joke about Cammel Soup. This is in the area of employment.

8 You are not expected to act like the norm but respect others. People
who live counter your views should be left alone. I do not care if the person next door is a wiccan that is their problem.

Elijah said...

Forgive my ignorance, but you must remember, politics in canada is an exercise in apathy...what is PC?
In canada that would be progressive conservative, a useless label with little ideological value.
Actually there has been talk here of disbanding the useless house of commons with its Ministers of Parliament, and the Senate, the body supposed to be the chamber of sober second thought...lol
More like a golden parachute, half of them are never there.
Thats why Canada is so often referred to as a dictatorship.
No real opposition.

beakerkin said...

PC is polictal correctness a semi official victimology code. There is a whole bunch of behaviors and words you can not do.

For example the correct word is Native American. On Bad Eagle the word is only used by me . They call themselves Indians.

Afirmative action is a taboo subject. Gays and Blacks are taboo
subjects never be to discussed beyond liberal framework. No discussion of Islam other than it is a religion of peace.

Elijah said...

Thats right, I should have known,

Warren said...

Beak, you can use the word Indian. Somebody might be offended, but you can always find someone ready to feel offended. I wouldn't use it over at Indianz.com, they would send out a war party, (if they could find enough Indians that weren't posers).

The Campbells soup thing was only half joke. I was trying to make a point about guilt by association. Unfortunately, the receiver of my pointed jibe, is too stubborn to get the point and I was unwilling to explain it in terms a child could understand. It would have only made him more angry.

You do realize that he knew exactly what I was talking about reguarding the Campbells. (Its a Scots thing)

Elijah said...

Not surprising to hear them call themselves Indians, considering Native American is a word coined, for me to assuage the guilt felt.
Political correctness is topical, but really, eventually, even these terms should, or will become offensive. African american et al.
On a lighter note, I remember referring to a client as a jew, and my girlfriend chided me on the use of this term, as if it was implicitly rascist. I guess I was suppose to say Jewish or a jewish person..lol

Esther said...

elijah, that wouldn't bother me, but I hardly speak for all Jews.

beak, great post! But if they could learn to let other people enjoy their religion in peace, we wouldn't have problems in the Middle East, never mind here.

beakerkin said...


I know that at Bad Eagle eveyone uses the word Indian . I do feel a tad guilty but if Indians call themselves Indians it should not be a problem.

I understood the Campbell - McDonald Scott bit. However a crazy coworker from Egypt really did misread Campell Soup as Cammel
Soup. We put in the inevitable Arab consipracy of a Scott stealing the idea and had days of fun.

The post beneath this one was written for you and Big Bubba. It is forgotten American History.

Elijah : I have been calling myself a Jew for years. There is no
problem with that description.

Esther: I wish Muslims would learn to really desire peace. However the culture presently places little value on peace, prosperity
and sadly human life.

I wish it were different but my view of Islamic and Arab history
leave me pessimistic.

kajando said...

beak and everyone:
what's your opinion of Dr. Zin at regimechangeiran (iran daily briefing)?
he seems to be afraid of the PMOI/MEK (I'm no fan of socialists, but at this point I'd send a buck to anyone trying to oust the clerics).

by the way, sorry to hear so many people are going to hell.

BigBubba said...

If the secular humanists are so smart why are our public schools and institutions of higher ignorance such abject failures?

The secular humanists have been in charge of education for years. They are taking us to gehenna in a handcart. When I was a kid I never thought a thing about the Jewish guy praying at some school function. I was just happy that we didn't have to sit still and listen to one of the twelve Jewish bankers in charge of the world. B-o-r-r-r-ring.

I was equally unconcerned when the prayers were led by a priest. I came in the same place my grandfather went out, St. Joseph's Hospital, Houston. Big Bubba was down with the brothahs and the sistahs. Does anyone know what the twelve Catholic bankers are in charge of? I know there was that plot to take over the bingo franchise world wide, but, I don't know what happened to the scheme. That one was a priest/penguin cabal plot anyway, unless the twelve Catholic bankers were providing the financing for the plot.

samwich said...

Hello Beaker, Got your emial when I got home from fishing and here I am.

Religion is from the Creator.
It's purpose is to guide all to return to the Creator after the "days of our probation" (MORTALITY)
The purpose of life is to:
#1 find truth.
#2 live by it.

As a baormeter, "by their fruit shall ye know them" works for me.

Religion is "used" to obtain money, influence and power.
lIFE IS A TEST. It is intended to show US what we are.
God already knows.

Hell: by making life hell for others we make our own hell.
Hell is being cut off from those we love and being abandoned to those who are filled with hate.

As we go through life, we choose, every day choices which make us more selfish or unselfish. Choices which make us kind or unkind.
Choices which become habits of behavior, and habits of behavior which determine our eternal destiny.

Wanna know the truth about God? Ask God.

beakerkin said...


I have been reading Dr Zin when Freedom 44 alerts me on Free Republic. Take whatever I say with a good amount of salt.

Slightly over 53% percent of the country is Persian. We hear alot from the colleges but what is going on with the Baluch, Kurds etc.Baluchistan may be they key to the war on terror. Ramzi Youseff
and Khalid Sheik Mohammed are Baluchs. There has been a rebellion of sorts for twenty years.

There needs to be a broad based effort including the Students, minorities and socialists etc.

Always On Watch said...

I love your last four points, especially #4.

Warren said...

The problem I have with Socialists and specifically with Socialism, is that in reality its a race to see whether Socialism bankrupts a country before it lapses into totalitarianism.

Socialism is detrimental to the human soul, (or spirit if you rather). Instead of self dependence it teaches people to stand around with their hand out asking for their basic needs.

In view of the history of Socialism, including its Utopian experiments, it is very hard for me to take a Socialist as a intelligent person.

Robert Bayn said...

You talk alot about the "Secular Agenda" being Pushed on people. But what about the Religious Agenda being pushed on people. I don't need to go too church to have someone tell me i'm not a equal to them, because they come to my job and tell me, that me and my partner don't deserve same sex benefits. I'm all for letting religous folk beleive what they want, i have no problem with that, but when they start protesting me and trying stop me from having the same benefits they take for granted, then i will protest them and i will stand up to the religious right. I will never ask anyone to compromise thier own morals, but why do they expect me to compromise mine, why do they push laws that say me and my partner are not equal to them. If your going to talk about the Libreal looneys pushing thier agenda, why not talk about the religious right and thier agenda that is disgracing christianity and the legacy of christ. I'm a gay christian, and for some they can't accept that, and i understand why they feel like they do, but when they start trying to disrupt my life and cause me harm, and try to keep me from achieving the american dream, then we have a problem.

I'am one of those libreal looneys, but so you know, i talk about not only the effort of the christian right against gays and lesbians, but i also talk about the tragedy's taken place in the middle east, where gay men and women are put to death for just being gay, thier is a serious culture war going on, the problem is, we act like those in washingtion, we don't listen to each other, and we think were the only ones who are right, and we never try too compromise.

I have been a advocate for civil unions, because i do not feel america is ready for gay marriage, however gay partners do deserve some level of rights in the united states, if we are that beacon of freedom we are suppost to be.

Keep it up, i like debating you, i respect your views, i think your a good person, we may disagree on political and culture policys, but this is all part of the greatest gift we have as americans, freedom of speech and freedom to express our opinions.

beakerkin said...


Like you I favor Civil Unions but for an entirely different reason. I
know several well adjusted gay couples and they deserve some benefits . The point is that marriage has a religious meaning that is common to several religions. I do not want government anywhere near my religion or wallet. Therefore civil unions are the way to go.

Religon and life are not fair or PC. There are several Christian denominations that welcome Gays.
You have merely selected the wrong one.

Now as a nonChristian there are plenty of people who assume I will be roasting in hell. This does not bother me at all. I do draw the line where people advocate violence. Inciting a riot is a serious crime.

You are not alone in your talk about Gays in the Middle East. We
have been discussing that for months. Queers Against the Terror and Gender Apartheid is the best source for that.

Here is the problem society needs
Civil law to protect its citizens.
Gay rights are human rights and can not be left to religious whims.
While I do not believe that Gays should superceede scriptual teaching it is dead wrong to persecute them for their lifestyle.

Life is about balancing priorities
and religious people and Gays both have rights. That is why I favor Civil Unions.