Wednesday, September 06, 2006

Is Critique of the Catholic Church's history Catholic Bashing

The reason I am posting on this subject is an indirect reference to the fued between
a friend Mr Beamish and Rightminded on Rocco's site. There has been heated rhetoric, but the charge of Catholic bahing has occured and I want to put my opinion on what is fair and over the top.

I want to state that while I consider Mr Beamish to be a friend , Rightminded does lack certain social skills. This being stated the rhetoric is a bit over the top. The relevance of my kinship with Barbara Striesand seems to be an amusing topic for Rightminded. I am sure if we shook anyones family tree a few nuts would fall out. This is an example of the decided lack of social graces that Rightminded is often guilty of. Whereas Beamish has friends in abundance, Rightminded has few defenders, but the topic is Catholic bashing.

I have done posts before on the pedophelia scandal that has rocked the Catholic Church. My contention remains that each and every day Catholic Charities help multitudes more people than the tragic few who were tragically wronged. Large organizations, like the Catholic Church, sometimes forget why they exist. Any Church exists to meet the spiritual needs of its congregants. This is the prime mission for
any Church. The Church failed to put the needs of the congregants first and shuffled problem priests around. However, the Church has apparently gotten the message and is attempting to fix the problem. The over the top media feeding feeding frenzy has been almost as disgusting as the original scandal. I am certain one can find similar stories about sexual abuse in public schools. However, we do not consider holding Teachers Unions accountable if they shuffle members around, perhaps we should.

On a pratical level the legal feeding frenzy is apalling. When little Wendy wants to get a quality education will she go down to a trial lawyers office. When Victor gets AIDS and needs social services will these attorneys lift a finger. When Joe becomes homeless will these lawyers provide him with a meal and mental health services. Will
the ratings driven talking heads provide these services. Thanks to the feeding frenzy and avalanche of lawsuits the Catholic Church is having to close schools, Churches and reduce services. Has the feeding frenzy of lawsuits hurt or helped more people? The policy of moving pedophile priests around was unforgivable. However, to
dismiss all the good work that the Catholic Church does each and every day is also unforgiveable.

The Catholic Church has admitted a series of great wrongs commited against the Jewish people. Thus any discussion of these topics does not seem to be unwarranted.
The unspoken real crime of the Crusades were the Jews who were needlessly killed along the way to liberate the Holy Land. The Crusades were a series of defensive reactions caused by centuries of Muslim territorial campaigns against Christians. Muslims seem to forget their predatory Jihads and mistreatment of Pilgrims as well as indigenous Jews and Christians.

The Church's record on Israel is also a legitamate point of discussion. The Catholic Church for whatever reason has not recognized Israel. We can speculate on the reason for that for years. John Paul 2 was the best of a rather poor lot. Much of the improvements in the Church's policy towards Jews and Israel was engineered by the current Pope.

These topics and what the historic role of the Church in the Western Colonial and Slave trading era are also legitimate topics. However, these points should be discussed within a rational framework. Colonialism and Slavery were universal norms
and not exclusive to Western Civ. The notion that indigenous people had rights and slavery was wrong stem from Christianity. Using the current morality to criticize Universal wrongsis disproportionate. Moreover, the vast majority of poeple who put the Catholic Church uder scrutiny readily give Islam a free pass for far more abhorent abuses. More black slaves were taken in the Eastern Slave Trade. Muslims are still on a series of lnd stolen in Colonial conquest. Moreover, they are demanding more land from a people they brutalized for 1400 years. They also make these claims while violating human rights of non-muslims today.

The greatest acheivement of the Pope is removing all the Liberation Theology nuts from its ranks. This is also one of the many reasons for the over the top media feeding frenzy on Church Scandals. A sect of clerics with a fealty towards a genocidal totalitarian philosophy ( Marx) was a great problem. The Church was 100% correct in booting out advocates of this philosophy.

I wish that those who have problems with Rightminded would ignore him. Some of the disdain is warranted, but it counter productive at this point. I wish that all the parties that are involved in the flaming at Rocco's site including Rightminded would remember it is Rocco's house. Lets try and stay on topic like good guests. This goes for everyone including me.

68 comments:

Mr. Beamish the Instablepundit said...

I do not know if I will participate in this thread. Blightminded's anti-Semitism sickens me, and the implied physical threats and death threats that faggot has emailed me over the last month do not convey a level of intellectual seriousness required to tackle such a weighty topic.

For the record, I will not be debating Blightminded's sock puppets either.

The Merry Widow said...

I have chosen to ignore him. He is a pathetic individual, I used to think he was amusing, now... Mr. B., you have been shall we say somewhat abrasive, but I figured you guys can work it out, you don't need me getting in the mix. I tried to be reasonable and he didn't want to chill. You are a friend and brother, therefor I will not respond to him in any way. Nanc was more than accomadating to open a comment thread and he took advantage and got very nasty, I quite reading it, it got so bad. Most of his posts anymore are ranting and nearly psychotic, don't need to go there. And that much venom, well I just do better as a person to avoid it!
Good morning, G*D bless and Maranatha!

tmw

BTW, Beamish in '08!

The Merry Widow said...

Sorry for the misspellings, haven't really started my coffee, yet!

tmw

nanc said...

well, this is your house and until he comes and spams your board like he did ours and you get good and mad at him, i won't have any dialogue with him. he's messed up.

Purple Avenger said...

Sounds like another nutbar Frishing themselves. Fumor is the FBI has charged dingbat Deb too.

beakerkin said...

Guys I 100% agree that Rightminded lacks social skills. He does say some things that are down right stupid out of temper.

I also have the highest respect for Richard Poe. I consider Richard Poe to be my teacher. He is the only author who has ever moved my position. Richard Poe does have respect for Rightminded.
I think we should try to ignore Rightminded.

One thing that is obvious is that while Mr Beamish, MZ, Jeff Bargholtz and Nanc have tons of friends Rightminded has few. Part of the reason is arrogance and the other part is he makes zero effort
to create them. If there was a friendly bone in his soul Nanc would have found it.

The Merry Widow said...

Exactlly! Nanc has a heart of gold under her quirky manner! Just don't tell her or anyone else though!

tmw

nanc said...

ODG - if this gets out, i'm sunk! take it back!

Mr. Ducky said...

I don't know Beak, you claim that anything that implies that Israel doesn't crap chocolate ice cream and piss perfume is anti-semitic so I guess your answer is yes if we are being consistent.

beakerkin said...

Ducky your record of equating Jews with Nazis and rationalizing terror speaks for itself. The critique I offered is readilly acknowledged by the Church itself.

Moreover, there is zero malice in my post towards the Chuch and I do note the preponderance of good work the Church has done. The best thing the Church ever did was to get rid of the " liberation Theology Crew". If any bunch deserved the Iquisition treatment that that is it.

Mr. Ducky said...

When have I ever "rationalized terror"?

Can you explain what that means? Just because I piss on hate mongers like Spencer and Pipes is hardly a rationalization for terror.

The Merry Widow said...

Nanc- ;p thwtht!

tmw

beakerkin said...

Duck your antisemitic comments and rationalization of terror are well known.

The Merry Widow said...

Nanc- You know I love you, don't you?

tmw

kuhnkat said...

Beakerkin,

having been a part of the thread mentioned, I would have to say that I was involved in Catholic bashing. What was done was over the top and I do not make any claims that what I did was right in reference to the Church.

The Church has a number of extremely bad periods in their past. They currently do NOT support any of those. As you mention they are currently mostly a positive force in the world. They also appear to be trying to correct their worst heresies in relation to Christianity.

Of course, they still have a way to go with their attitude towards Israel and the Jews!!!!

All that being said, it did provide a unique self admitted view into the cesspit RM calls a BRAIN!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

beakerkin said...

Ducky

Hold that thought, because the next time you do it we will highlight it. Your standard response is to equate American and Israeli policies with the terror.
I am still laughing over the Litani River water fantasy.

Mr. Beamish the Instablepundit said...

I will admit to the charge of "Catholic bashing." Don't get me wrong, I find their ceremonial preservation of European pagan culture to be interesting, but as a Christian I find their theology a bit lacking in depth.

beakerkin said...

Mr B what do you define as pagan?
Would this make a Zola Leavitt type your ideal Church?

JINGOIST said...

Great post Beak! You nailed it when you compared the Teacher's Union shuffling pederast teachers around to the Church's practice of reassigning "troubled" priests. It is EXACTLY the same thing. The Church seems to have learned it's lesson, while the teacher's union is probably arguing over the judgemental aspects of the word PEDERAST! The world's a better place with a healthy and judgemental Catholic Church.


Morgan

JINGOIST said...

Beak let me take a stab at your question to Senor Beamish. Let me say up front that I admire true Catholics and don't intend any offense to them or their great faith. I say that up front because it's heartfelt and this is a subject they are touchy about.

Catholicism has incorporated a HUGE number of pagan religious rituals into their practice. It's rife with Ancient Roman polytheism, Zoroastrianism, Mithraism and regional European pagan flavors. You could spend a week going into the details on this subject, but I don't want to. Catholics are good people by and large and they still know who G-d is.

Morgan

Mr. Beamish the Instablepundit said...

Beak,

I mean pagan as in the pre-Christian traditional polytheistic European religions. St. Brigit, for example was a Irish Celtic goddess of fire and poetry until the Catholics canonized her as a saint. Several instances of this occur in Catholic history - a local deity becomes a saint in the church canon. And not just in the past. It happens in Central America aplenty. It is happening right now in Africa with traditional animist tribal nature spirits becoming "saints." It's an interesting dynamic of cultural assimilation at work, as the Catholics see it, and as a Christian, I agree that it is interesting. But, as a Christian I have to ask which culture is assimilating the other?

nanc said...

first of all beak - THE church is not a building - THE church is a people. A church would be where likeminded people meet. if we begin there and end up there - we would have a fine church.

along came divisions and that's where we are today.

if you stripped every "church" of its manmade doctrines and stuck to biblical teaching only, we'd be much better off.

the baptists started the emergent church and the purpose drivel church and now we have gimmick filled houses of worship. it's sad when a family cannot find a strictly bible teaching church in the south that doesn't follow all this froofy business.

my husband had an argument 20 years ago with his ex-mother-in-law, a strong r.c. over the name "Jehovah" (JHWH or YHVH) and she adamantly told him there was not such a name for G-d in her coffee table bible. he picked it up, blew off the dust, broke the gold binding holding the pages together and showed her numerous places where that name was.

he laughed - she was in her sixties and had never had the inclination to read her bible!

my own family is irish catholic - same thing. of course morgan is right - there are many fine catholics as there are pentecostals, baptists, lutherans, etc.

but, unless you read, study and adhere to what your manual says about how to live - you're just paying lip service to the multitudes.

none, no not one is perfect. you cannot hide behind "religion". frankly, i'd rather have a four person bible study with my family two or three times per week than to have to put up a front in front of the multitudes. i'm just no good at it - that's what i'm no good at. hey, i finally figured it out!

we allow our "churches" to run our lives at our peril. chances are if it feels too good to be true religiously - it's probably a lie sent by the deceiver.

AND, TMW - YOU HAVE DONE IT NOW! STOP TRYING TO MAKE ME LOOK NICE!

The Merry Widow said...

Excellent point, another case is Santeria, which we get to deal with here in Florida. It is a mixture of pagan animal sacrifice, worship of saints and some unpleasent elements that get animal services uptight! They tried to push for an exception to animal cruelty laws, but it was overwhelmingly shot down by the voters! Any institution where humans have a degree of control tend to become corrupted and off course, expediency is what drove the church to accept pagan dieties as "saints". It was a numbers game. The Babylonian elements are enough to give one pause! Yes, there are some very G*Dly RC's, but the church around the world is very tainted. I attended 3 yrs. of private catholic high school, and you do learn quite a bit of history. My Mother, who became a Christian, told me not to join the RCC. That should be an indication.

tmw

beakerkin said...

People

I understand the points, however lets say you disagree with the philosophy. Can't we respect the peaceful beliefs of others.

There has been a long argument over what the original Church was like. We would have to include Eastern Orthodox churches as well.
This question would be almost a Christian version of original intent. This would require many theologians and become messy.

Mr. Beamish the Instablepundit said...

Beak,

This discussion can get messy. Throw in the fact that many organizations that call themselves "Christian" aren't, at all, and the dimensions of messy exponentiate. And that's without involving the theologians.

I usually just keep it simple and point out the differences between Catholicism and Christianity.

beakerkin said...

Mr B I understand your point but can't we be respectful to all the non "Liberattion Theology" nuts.

Mr. Beamish the Instablepundit said...

I'm as respectful as I can be, but there's just no way you can put a Peyton Manning jersey on Emmanuel Lewis and call him a star quarterback. Well, you could, but come gametime, the taste test would kill him. Religion's the same way. An Orthodox Jew wouldn't accept a rabbi that taught that eating bacon would make you holy, just as a Christian wouldn't go all ga-ga if a scorch mark on their barbeque grill formed the shape of "Mary."

nanc said...

i had quite the theological discussion with my boss a few weeks ago on the "rapture" - they home church and are strictly biblical along the lines of some amish and some of the -ites. they are part of the (google this) church with NO name. the men are somewhat progressive and the women are the ones who wear the buns and long dresses (no caps).

he, like many other christians, believes he will go in the rapture - my argument was that we'll all be surprised to see who doesn't go if indeed there is a pre-trib rapture. he wanted to know why i felt this way - to which i responded, "do you know how hard it is to be everything we're supposed to be to go in this rapture?"

first, we'd have to be prostrate as david 24/7 - repentance is another story. how many of us truly repent?

yes, beak - we can and should be respectful of others when it comes to religious views, but we are NEVER to agree with them if they do not follow biblical teaching. that is why i say it is far better to be narrowminded on the side of truth than broadminded on the side of a lie. silence is agreement.

Yeshua said you are either for Me or against Me - choose you THIS day who you'll serve. you cannot have it both ways and be a follower of Him. there is no middle of the road. of course, we are expected to stumble - we're human.

i always ask my family and friends, "who or what do you serve and what ends are you willing to go in your service?" you find out right away what is important to people. things do not create happiness; things accompany happiness and there is no happiness outside the Lord.

if the catholic church would change the day of worship back to the true sabbath, i'd have much more respect for them - check that out in their catechism.

kuhnkat said...

Little Che Sucky the Fascist,

you bud is making waves again!!

http://ap.washingtontimes.com/dynamic/stories/I/IRAN_UNIVERSITY_PURGE?SITE=DCTMS&SECTION=HOME

Don't forget that the MODERATE Khatami beat him to the University purge bit either!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

kuhnkat said...

I'm sorry, I forgot to mention that Ahmadinejad's purging the universities is all Bush's fault!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Mr. Ducky said...

Amazing isn't it Beak. Beamish and kuhncat defining who is and who is not a christian. The hubris of these whitened sepulchres knows no limit.

Cheer up, Beak. They need you for the endtimes before hey throw you into the lake of fire with the damned. I happen to feel you'll be judged by your acts so fall in with whichever group you think best. At least you know where you stand with me.

beakerkin said...

Ducky

I am not a religious person, but when the time comes I will answer for whatever failings I have done.
Many will answer for far more, and some for less. My life is determined by a code of honor.

As far as being with you , this amuses me. Lets see given the uniform ability of Marxists to create a hell on Earth, or the whims of the big guy upstairs, I will take door number two.

The notion that Utopia on Earth is possible is far more odious and lethal than discusions of afterlife.

Nanc

You are a Sabatarian????

nanc said...

no, i'm ashamed to say, but believe it is the true day to keep. Yeshua kept approximately 396 sabbaths - the old testament alludes to the fact that we will keep the sabbath in the kingdom age along with feast and fast days. we try to worship everyday at our home, but do not keep a complete day of rest - those usually come in moments.

remember, i am an o.t. christian. the law that Yeshua came to fulfill was the law of moses - 613 laws, not the law which was written in the hand of G-d - the ten commandments.

i do not go along with the seventh day adventists although they are a wonderful bunch and mostly biblical as far as religion goes, but then again, we allude to religion.

G-d has written eternity onto each of our hearts, whether we be athiest, jew, gentile, buddhist, hindu, agnostic, or braindead. we can't erase that. you cannot destroy matter.

nanc said...

you know how i hate to be o.t.....;].....but have you seen drudge? ahmafreakindinejad is going to be in nyc to give orders...er...uh...address the u.n.

Mr. Beamish the Instablepundit said...

Ducky,

Amazing isn't it Beak. Beamish and kuhncat defining who is and who is not a christian. The hubris of these whitened sepulchres knows no limit.

Get back to me when you find the Bible passage that the Catholic doctrine of "Purgatory" came from.

And while you're digging through your shelves trying to remember what a Bible looks like, take time to thank a Protestant that one is available in your native language.

nanc said...

found this most wonderful tidbit:

"Renounce all the policy of the age. Trample upon Saul's armor. Grasp the book of God. Trust the Spirit who wrote its pages. Fight with this weapon only and always. Cease to amuse, and seek to arouse. Shun the clap of a delighted audience, and listen for the sobs of a convicted one. Give up trying to please men who have only the thickness of their ribs between their souls and Hell; and warn, and plead, and entreat, as those who feel the waters of eternity creeping upon them."

Rev. Archibald G. Brown

at:

http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com/

a relatively new site, excellent.

nanc said...

plucky? it's the one you've never opened!

nanc said...

whitened sepulchres?

kuhnkat said...

Little Che Sucky the Fascist,

it isn't hard to figure out what a Christian is supposed to be if you just read a little!!

You do READ THE BIBLE don't you???

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

The Merry Widow said...

That is funny, especially when Jesus used it to describe the "religious" leaders of HIS day! I'm not a "leader", I don't put heavy loads on people, I want to take them off! Nanc- You would appreciate what is happening at our "church", we have about 50 people, but we are going slow and waitting on G*D's leading. In the meantime we pray, are putting our families in order and are studying Acts! Really studying Acts, verse by verse! But it is really great, we fellowship over a meal, sing, pray then discuss. Everyone, even teens! It's wonderful.
plucky doesn't have a clue!
Good morning, G*D bless and Maranatha!

tmw

Mr. Ducky said...

Beamish and kunhcat never letting us down. Beamish brings up Purgatory but doesn't question Martin Luther's theses.

So your dogma is divinely inspired. Right, and i suppose Genesis is literally true.

Tie a can on it. As I've said, I read the gospels (unlike fundamentalists) and one of the reasons is that the gnostic texts also present Jesus's ministry in those words. They are the best records we have.

So go on with your religion baiting and get all confused when you're called out as bigots, scientific dullards and hypocrites.

Remember, only the American south wants you. What does that say about your gutter religion?

nanc said...

if you only read the gospels you are missing out, plucky. who was slain from the foundation of the world? what covered adam's and eve's sin? first blood shed in the bible?

i believe genesis is true, but not because i believe it.

luther did great things, but was a raging anti-semite unto his very death. he may not do well at the judgment...

The Merry Widow said...

Genesis, the Epistles, the Prophets, the Psalms and Song of Solomon. Ecclesiastes, the Wisdom writtings, there is so much you have missed! as for the gnostic books, there is sufficient questions about who, where, when and why about them to leave them out. Many were written after the apostles were dead and cannot be verified! They do scratch "itching ears" though and feed appetites of those who reject G*D's Totallity. Keep scratching your ears and you will miss the Truth!

tmw

The Merry Widow said...

Excuse me, I should have said are instead of is about the questions. My bad!

tmw

Mr. Beamish the Instablepundit said...

Ducky,

I was going to start with "Purgatory." I was saving ex cathedra for later.

Mr. Beamish the Instablepundit said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
kuhnkat said...

Little Che Sucky the Fascist,

saying the gnostics are more reliable is up there with saying that guy writing comic books is more reliable than the gnostics!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Little Che Sucky the Fascist spit:

"Remember, only the American south wants you. What does that say about your gutter religion?"

Tch tch tch, there goes that east coast elitism again!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA

Mr. Beamish the Instablepundit said...

Remember, only the American south wants you. What does that say about your gutter religion?

I'm sorry, I was reading about how the hooch wine and hard tack turns into Jesus in your mouth, not in your hands over there at the Catholic pad. What was your question?

kuhnkat said...

Mr. BTIP,

I always liked the idea that their charities were handing out water and rice and flour while the priests and better were relaxing back in air conditioned comfort drinking wine and eating well enough for there to be a lot of corpulence. Not to mention the egregious waste of wealth in their cathedrals and palaces er homes.

Yes, the wealth of the Catholic Church is well documented as desirable in Jesus' teachings. I just wish someone could show me where and explain that one to me as I am an ignorant sinner.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Mr. Beamish the Instablepundit said...

C'mon Kuhnkat,

Dem Catholics believe they're actually eatin' and drinkin' Jesus. Probably some crazy overly fundamentalist literal translation of Scripture involved, except for the fact that to believe in that, you'd have to visualize Jesus waving a clone of Himself around at the Last Supper.

And we wouldn't want to question the scientific minds of folk who finally discovered our heliocentric solar system a few years ago.

kuhnkat said...

Mr. BTIP,

Oh, he isn't CLONING himself, he is just breaking off pieces that regrow. You know, like the bread and fishes and changing the water into wine??

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

They could be skin tabs that he is breaking off and blood from hemrhoids or sumthin'. I mean, with people like US to die for, he MUST have hemrhoids!

Mr. Beamish the Instablepundit said...

Kuhnkat,

Ewww. Let's just say the Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation allows them to say they serve the Lord every Sunday. On little trays.

Justin said...

Beamish said:
"Ewww. Let's just say the Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation allows them to say they serve the Lord every Sunday. On little trays."

Mr B your ignorance is only superceded by your bigotry.

You claim to be a christian. If you are an example of christianity I can see why people are leaving the churches in droves.

Do they still serve communion in the Baptist Church Beamish?

Do you Baptist still refuse to let those not in your congregation to take communion?

Perhaps since you are such a big christian and throw the bible around you could clarify just what the apostle meant when he said these words regarding what Catholics call the Sacrament and you call Communion. Or is this just another one of those little inconvienent passages that dont really apply to you "christians"?

1 Corinthians 11

23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

Mr. Beamish the Instablepundit said...

Justin,

When I attended "church," the communion service was special and solemn enough to not do every Sunday, and when it was done, actual bread was baked and broken and passed in fellowship. Jesus was remembered throughout the feast (yes, we were EATING), as we prayed and gave testimonies.

But more importantly, at no point in time did anyone insist that they could speak a few consecrating words and magically transform that bread into Jesus' flesh, as is presented by Catholicism.

The doctrine of transubstantiation is but one of many of the differences between Catholicism and Christianity.

Mr. Beamish the Instablepundit said...

Justin,

Also, you can do this at home. Break bread with friends, family, guests... and share in God.

You need no Catholic priest to come to your kitchen and bless your bread with the right combination of mumbled Latin phrases.

You aren't having fellowship eating a snack cracker and sipping vino in the middle of an audience / theatrical production.

kuhnkat said...

Ya know Justin, Mr. BTIP has a point. Nowhere in the passage you quote does it say anything about a building costing a few million, a man who has been trained and lives on the peoples dime to lead and BLESS the service, and to wear clothes more costly that Italian suits!!! It also wasn't originally written in Latin or requires any particular language.

Mr. BTIP has a very good point that breaking bread and supping with fellow believers fully qualifies wherever and with whomever it is done as long as they are believers in Jesus and the Father and do it to remember Him!! No special building, clothes, ceremonies, collections, language............

the ceremonies of MAN continually intrude and get in the way of worshipping HIM!! In fact, he warned us against them!!

I also wonder about what he would think of the trappings being so expensive and complex and the flesh and blood so CHEAP!!!! Ya ever wonder why it is more like pressed dust and colored water??

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Mr. Beamish the Instablepundit said...

the ceremonies of MAN continually intrude and get in the way of worshipping HIM!! In fact, he warned us against them!!

The weekly mouthfuls of "Jesus flesh," the ubiquitous dead-guy-on-a-cross iconography, the rote drilled ritualistic hand gestures, the keeping tally of prayers to Mary with a string abacus...

These aren't Christians. These are zombies.

Mr. Beamish the Instablepundit said...

Polytheistic, superstitious, atavistic zombies.

Mr. Beamish the Instablepundit said...

(Say that 10 times fast)

Justin said...

KuhnKat said:

"Ya know Justin, Mr. BTIP has a point. Nowhere in the passage you quote does it say anything about a building costing a few million."

Ya know Kuhn I never alluded to it having to be done in a building costing millions nor did I ever say it had to be blessed by a priest.

Your ignorance shines through even brighter than Mr. B's as you obviously missed the whole point of the post just as he did.

You and he were bashing Catholics for their belief in the sacrament representing the body and the blood of Jesus. Read the passage and find out just what it says it is.

Read verse 29. Do you think that could be where not only the Catholics but the Baptist and every other protestant religion get the idea it is the body and blood of Jesus?

To Mr. B's statement that they didnt do it every Sunday. That is not the point of Communion. You are admonished that as often as you do it do it in remembrence of what it is. There was no schedule for doing it like ok we will do it on the quarterly, monthly,or yearly basis. No it was as often as you do it.

KuhnKat said:
"a man who has been trained and lives on the peoples dime to lead and BLESS the service,"

Does the name Billy Graham, Jerry Fawell or Pat Robertson come to mind here?

"and to wear clothes more costly that Italian suits!!!"

Do Protestant Shirts, Cars, Houses, and Rolex watches on the wrist come to mind here?

"It also wasn't originally written in Latin or requires any particular language."

You were right on that one Kuhn it was written in Greek.

Personally I do not believe you have to have a building to worship God. Nor do you have to have any reminders Crosses, Statutes of Saints or even a preacher/priest to worship and be accepted by God.

However, when breaking bread and drinking the wine as a communion as it was given in the Bible no matter how often or how few times you do it you do not mock what it stands for in any religion.

I know Mr B loves to judge the whole Catholic Church on the actions of some priest's but how many stories have I read this week alone of Protestant Preachers and those in power in the church abusing children girls and boys. Well, actually this week alone I have read 10.

There is even one of a BAPTIST preacher his wife and her brothers arressted for having sex with under age girls and using them sexually in religious rights. It seems it has been going on for years and yet no one in the Church said anything. HMMMM.

Mr. B what kind of religion do you Baptist have that you use little girls in sexual rituals?

Do these stories mean that Catholics should judge,castigate and ridicule all Baptist and all other Protestant Churches for these goings on?

Naaaaaaaa I think most are above that. They dont judge the whole by the actions of some.

Mr. Beamish the Instablepundit said...

Justin,

I'm not Baptist. Sure, I was raised in a Baptist church, but I'm a Christian now.

Something tells me you're itching to bash Baptists because you can't make Catholic doctrine conform to Christianity. Let's try to stay on topic.

kuhnkat said...

Justin said:

"Does the name Billy Graham, Jerry Fawell or Pat Robertson come to mind here?"

when I was a KID I saw the Hypocrisy in Billy Graham and the rest of the BIG TENT types. It is part of what has kept me out of organised churches all my life. I also ignore all other MONEY people on TV.

Sorry, I doubt if Mr. BTIP pays any attention to the idiots either, other than to make sure he isn't in an area where they have decided to congregate and block traffic!!

There is nothing you can say that will reduce how ridiculous the beliefs of the Catholic Church are that do not match the BOOK the supposedly believe in!!

Just imagine a Boy Scout who is GAY or Pagan.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

If you are going to believe in something, at least try to make changes that are functional and/or a logical extension and/or would appear to be a reasonable correction!!

PS: ridicule away. I am sure there is lots to ridicule, I just don't remember too much of the Baptist churches I was taken to as a child. In fact, help yourself to making fun of me, there is lots there just based on my postings. Just remember, I am going to poke fun at you everytime you try to put me in the wrong HOLE!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

kuhnkat said...

Oh, and Justin,

your picking the story about the Baptist Preacher and wife molesting little girls is an excellent example.

That example is the blindness of people who ASSUME their leaders are following what they preach!!!

HAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

It is the story of most large organisations including both political parties. Again, it is why Mr. BTIP and myself DO NOT associate with large organisations!!

Putting your trust in people you don't know eventually blows back. All organisations need to be regularly torn apart and only rebuilt if still needed and with DIFFERENT leaders!!!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Mr. Beamish the Instablepundit said...

All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Every one deserves to go to Hell.

We are saved by grace through faith, not works. This is the fundamental difference between Catholicism and Christianity.

Jesus died for the sins of mankind, yet the Catholics believe Jesus' sacrifice wasn't good enough. You have to tick off prayers to Mary, cross yourself with your hand whenever you mutter a feckless platitude, jump through this hoop and that hoop.... and that's just to get to Purgatory, not Heaven.

I believe Jesus' sacrifice to be sufficient. Catholics do not. Hence all the morbid dead "Jesus" on a cross icons.

He is risen. That's the point.

Justin said...

Beamish said:

Something tells me you're itching to bash Baptists because you can't make Catholic doctrine conform to Christianity. Let's try to stay on topic.

Mr. B if you mean by staying on topic to discuss the topic of calling you out on your crude comments concerning what people beieve the Sacrament or Communion mean then I did that.

Had you been able to read english you would find I was not protecting nor trying to bash any religion as I am not Catholic. I think I have made that clear in other posts.

I do believe I told Kuhn the following:

Justin said:

"Personally I do not believe you have to have a building to worship God. Nor do you have to have any reminders Crosses, Statutes of Saints or even a preacher/priest to worship and be accepted by God."

As I have said before I attend Baruch HaShem. I will let you do the leg work to find out what that is.

And FYI I know lots of Baptists,Catholics,Pentacostals,
Methodist and even some United Christians that are Christians to.
Sorry you didnt get the job of deciding who is and who is not Christian B but some one else a lot more qualified had that Job long before you came along.

Justin said...

And Kuhn:

As I said before I just hope Beamish doesnt make any sharp turns.

Mr. Beamish the Instablepundit said...

Justin,

The topic is Catholicism. I'm just pointing out that the RCC's doctrinal anti-Semitism is not the only thing that differentiates them from Christianity.

It's not my intention to get into a dueling Bible verses match with a former Catholic priest.

Come back when you have a stronger Christian background.

Mr. Beamish the Instablepundit said...

But, I'll leave you with this:

When you go to the bathroom after having taken "communion," does "Jesus" come out of your ass?

Or is the Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation incoherent?