Monday, September 18, 2006

A bonus post From Bad Eagle

Dr Yeagley has been inquiring about how Conservatives think about Native Americans and Native Americans Issues, this excludes poultry. For reasons that are unknown people tend to lump me in with the Conservatives. Several of our readers have Native American heritage including Uptown Steve who is also part celery as well.

I will begin with my opinion. The Native American is a inkblot for many people. What we see in them is more of a relection of us then what they are. In NYC Native Americans are one of the few groups I do not encounter. However as a NYC native people have to define themselves as individuals.

Where does a person with little or no contact with Native Americans prior to my time at Bad Eagle get their knowledge. My exposure is through neo-communist lite Social Science and history classes. Antropologists tend to portray tribal people as benign Marxist types. However, my professor went out of his way to stress the wide differences between Aztec, Onieda, Comanche and other societies. Grouping such divergent cultures together is as wrong as lumping Sweedes and Greeks together. Native American cultures like all others were a mix of good and bad. Some tribes were imperialistic and many practiced slavery, but so were the Europeans. There were also peaceful tribes and most practices some form of trade. Moreover, Native Americans readilly adapted available technology.

The other source is the media which fluctuates between blood starved sex crazed savages and all knowing wise men and Land o Lakes maidens. The current trend is towards all wise shamans. I do like the Indians in the Frisco Kid, but that is another story.

The problem most people have is a lack of contact. Do most of us see Native Americans in our daily lives. Do we see Native American truck drivers, military personel, teachers, house wives, musicians and yes farmers? On the rare times we see Native Americans on TV it is accademic goons using Native American history to further an anti American agenda.

Let Native Americans take back their history from the accademic neo-marxist social science dolts.Let them run their own business not limited to casinos. Let the non Native American profiteers recoup their investments and stop abusing Native American history.

I have zero problems with the special relationship and obligations my country has to Native Americans. However, I want to hear this from genuine Native Americans and not some freak creation of Neo-marxist goons in a Social Science department. America wants to hear what you want in your own voice.

Can Native Americans be patriots? They certainly have served with honor in the military. The question is absurd as anyone could be a patriot. The exceptions to this are Marcusian and traditional Marxists, Jihadis and racial power nuts who are prone to nature of who they are of divided loyalty and incapable of logic. However, the vast majority of us are patriots and view America as a force for good.

51 comments:

uptownseteve said...

beaker

Uncle Tomahawk Yeagley claims that blacks with Pequot ancestry are frauds trying to be something they are not even though any person laying claim to Pequot reservation rights has their ancestry fully scrutinized and investigated.

Who is Yeagley to determine who is a real Indian?

He looks pretty white to me and he damn sure sucks up to white righties.

beakerkin said...

Uptown

This post is for Conservatives.

As far as Yeagleys appearance he looks the part to me.

nanc said...

being of native descent, and having spent many years between the state of washington, california, and minnesota - i can tell you only of the diversity which the natives have created for themselves.

my father, on his deathbed, told me to go back to the nation and claim my heritage - i told him that i've never felt that sorry for myself. it is ALL about handouts for the natives.

being of the plains variety of indian - it is written well on my face and structure. high cheekbones, hollow cheeks, dark complexion, tall and nearly perfect posture - unlike the fisheaters of northern washington who tend to be frumpy and more round. although natives appear to be a proud people - collectively we are failures.

it is only individually we accomplish anything of merit. collectively we have still a "poor me" attitude. individually we rise.

my husband's work has taken him to many reservations to perform construction/plumbing on h.u.d. homes so i've had the opportunity to see what "welfare" has done for the native american - not a "DAYAMED" thing! the same as for everybody else who subscribes to this logic.

i want more for my children than a reparation system can or ever will offer.

thanks beak - although i don't know how my statement will change anything for any native american.

beakerkin said...

Nanc

Dr Yeagley wants to know how Conservatives see Native Americans.
Everyone's view is valid except Uptown and Ducky who are not Conservatives.

uptownseteve said...

beaker

"This post is for conservatives".

What is your problem with debate beaker?

I actually HAVE Native American ancestry and I don't have the right to comment?

nanc said...

collectively - i believe i stated - being a conservative - see them as welfare cases. how much more pointed could i have been.

nanc said...

"being a conservative native/irish" american...

beakerkin said...

Uptown

This is a special post where Dr Yeagley wants to know what Conservatives think of Native Americans and Native American Issues. You are clearly not Conservative.

The issue is not about Dr Yeagley either. My contention is that Conservatives do not think about these issues very much.

We aren't even debating anything. We are seeking information.

uptownseteve said...

Oh okay beak.

Conservatives think that Native Americans are mainly patholigical welfare recipients.

Except the ones who are making millions from soverignty and casinos.

THEY'RE the ones who piss you off.

I get it now.

beakerkin said...

Uptown

This post has zero to do with you.
You are not Conservative and have zero to say on the thoughts of Consevatives.

nanc said...

seteve - now you are being facetious. casinos are the perfect revenge on the rest of the world - as my stepfather has done security at an indian casino for a number of years i can safely say this, natives are NOT the ones who are losing their money there.

perhaps the tables are turning, i just hate to see it in the gambling arena - gambling is just legal thievery.

i do NOT speak for all conservatives so others will have to weigh in.

there are many ethnic groups who are more welfare prone than the indian, seteve and you know it.

as for me - i'm pist when anybody who has NO merit rises to the top - the peter principle holds no weight with me.

kuhnkat said...

Uptownsleeze can not think. Reading requires processing power that he does not use IF he has it. Communication is impossible with such a Duncy clone like that.

You clearly stated that this post was to answer a question that Yeagley asked. It said nothing about debating the issue or getting diverse opinions.

Based on this clear statement of fact Uppity deduced that you were asking for a debate of conservative opinions. Beakerkin, what don't you understand about this straightforward logic of Leftard STUPIDITY?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I can think of NO american indian natives that I have ever known. My great great granny was a Cherokee and I received NO information about her other than that and her name from my family. I do not discuss Indian issues due to my abysmall ignorance of their status.

My bigoted feelings are that most indians that stayed on the reservation are ignorant victims created by the Big Brother Indian Affairs who either wallow in their deprivation or dream of a past that will NEVER be recreated.

As I said above, I am ignorant of their actual status.

Warren said...

I doubt my opinion is wanted or needed.

Warren said...

Kuhnkat,
"who either wallow in their deprivation or dream of a past that will NEVER be recreated."

It's called, (figuratively), "Dancing the ghost dance."

beakerkin said...

Warren

Your opinion is always valued. Dr Yeagley wants to know what if anything Conservatives think of Native Americans and their issues.

The casino bit overeshadows the situation. I wish that there was a greater emphasis on other types of small business eutrepeneursip. Small family type business that are the pillar of communities.

Mr. Beamish the Instablepundit said...

I actually HAVE Native American ancestry and I don't have the right to comment?

Your momma's baby's daddy's cousin's sister-in-law Towanda?

Kyle said...

Well, let me chime in as a Southern Good ol boy. We have a lot of Indians (I don't know of a single one who calls themselves native Americans) living where I grew up, and in fact I have some ancestry on both sides of my family.
Poverty is not really the problem although in the large western reservations I understand there is some grinding poverty. The biggest problem facing American Indians is and has been
booze. The Kids I knew in High school who were Indian(about a fourth of our school) nearly all had drunk fathers and some of them became drunks also.
Alcohol and liberals, those are their biggest enemies.

Hey guys I just posted a bunch of articles on my site, check it out and feel free to link to it.
http://impudent.blognation.us/blog

The Merry Widow said...

My late's family has a Cherokee branch, so I have spent time with them. They are Christians, nonimbibers, hard working people! I enjoyed talking with one of my late's cousins, who has since gone Home, she was intelligent and had common sense and was a pleasure to be with. I also attended college with another Cherokee woman and enjoyed her common sense also! I just see them as people, I do believe as a point of honor, that all treaties should be honored! I also have seen what a particulair(dhimmicrat) senator did to one tribe because they didn't vote for him! It was about 40 or so years ago, he ramrodded a bill through Congress that forbade them to even repair their homes, couldn't build new buildings or put in plumbing! That was so down and dirty that I still get angry about it to this day! That was petty revenge and nauseating! Aside from that, the "welfare state" creates poverty and encourages a lack of initiative. It's poison to the victims and alcoholism is the other!
Good morning, G*D bless and Maranatha!

tmw

nanc said...

i heard an interesting statistic a few years ago - only one percent of the entire american indian nation is touched by evangelism - americans travelling the world preaching the gospel to the nations and our own citizens are going hungry for the Word. shameful.

and i want to know warren's opinion!

Farmer John said...

I'm afraid I don't see Native Americans as being much different from other Americans, as most that I know have assimilated the popular culture. Those that chose to remain on tribal lands, I kinda feel sorry for, because instead of retaining their traditional culture, many have adopted a western urban-poor culture of welfare dependency and drug abuse. They are no longer the self-sufficient and self-reliant group they once were. But then again, Native American "values" of self-reliance and sufficiency are no longer as admired as they once were in the popular culture. Native American values of freedom and self-reliance were once the model emulated by the colonists and pioneers/trappers, Modern societies today are fat too inter-dependent, compartmented, and technologically specialized to value self-sufficiency and self-reliance. Hopefully a Tofflerian "Third Wave" Information Age will bring back self-reliance and sufficiency as popular values. Unfortunately, unless Native Americans become highly educated, they will not participate or benefit in this shift, although their cultural base will be coming back into vogue. Perhaps they should seize the culture and lead the way, through popularization of their art, and lifestyle of harmonizing w/nature? I know... what a naive thought.

The Merry Widow said...

Nanc- Have you ever heard of Crying Wind? She is an evangelical speaker and writer. She has written 2 books, which I have stashed somewhere. The first is "Crying Wind", it's about her life on the reservation and eventual leaving to work "outside", how she became a Christian, how her 2 uncles got saved, her marriage and how her speaking at a tent meeting brought her divorced parents to Christ and back together!

tmw

nanc said...

tmw - my blood father left me a very extensive library of native american literature of which i've not read an nth of - perhaps those books are in the collection? most of my books have been in storage for the better part of ten years. except for the five or six thousand we've bought since then - of which about half is literature for children.

he loved to go to library sales once or twice a year and stock up - my daughter and i have his love for books - you cannot have too many...you may need to build a sturdy shelter one day...

i do appreciate stories of people who've risen above their circumstances - like cream rising to the top!

The Merry Widow said...

Nanc- You've got it! My late and I with 2 households of booklovers put together, plus all the ones we bought in 2 1/2 yrs. moved 3300 lbs. of books from Fla. to Cal. took one guy 1 1/2 days to pack them! I have donated, sold and given them away, I still have more than I know what to do with! My 2 have inherited our love for them, my daughter has dyslexia so we read to her and we all enjoy it! I would love to meet Crying Wind, she has been through so much, but comes out shining like pure gold! Funny thing, G*D tends to do that to people!
And I do love "cream" of the crop people!

tmw

JINGOIST said...

Thank you for that wonderful post Beaker!
You are absolutely right when you claim that the Marxists litter American Indian history with copious amounts of horseshit. Pre-Columbian studies was a passion of mine during my useless years in college so this is a subject that I know a little about.
Here's a classic utterance of the idiot left where Indians are concerned, "Most native American societies lived peaceful egalitarian lives before the arrival of the Europeans." WHAT!

All you need to do is pay attention to the huge earthen walls at the late classic Mayan cities to understand that they could wage wars of annihilation with the best of them! They were humans.

Bottom line; north and south American Indian tribes and civilizations were basically the same as their old world counterparts. They generally were every bit as stratified by class and wealth as any Mandarin or Frenchmen ever dreamed of being.

There were a few important differences.
On the whole, American Indians were 2000 years behind Europe in weapons technology and not much closer in other areas. While they built on a magnificent scale (Incas, Mayans, Cahokia, Aztecs) this brilliance didn't even translate into a road system capable of sustaining non-existant wheeled carts! I don't want to hear that garbage about mountainous terrain or lack of draft animals. The Romans built wonderful roads in the nearly vertical Carpathian mountains 1500 years before Columbus! It occurs to me that 8 men working a wheeled cart could easily manage 5 times as much trade goods as the usual pack-borne slave train used in MesoAmerica. Game, set and match on that stupid argument.
Here's another important differance. According to every single eyewitness account I've read on the subject, Indians tended to be more religious/superstitious than their old world counterparts. In many societies it resembled animism on steroids, while in the greater civilizations there was a definite polytheistic hierarchy.
One unfortunate side effect of this "obsession" was a staggering level of religious barbarity. It was once thought that the Aztecs were the only ones who ripped the still-beating hearts out of tens of thousands for "religious" purposes. Recent finds in the American southwest, Mayan lands and throughout South America are shocking in many ways. Human sacrifice was practiced on a monstrous scale!
Five thousand year old Peruvian cities are now being unearthed in the coastal desert. That's as old as ANYTHING we have in the old world. And you wanna know something, they waged war on each other and in some cases wiped each other out. Does this sound familiar?
So before you succumb to Marxist horseshit where American Indians are concerned remember:
They were only human.

Morgan

JINGOIST said...

Nanc I read your top post, GOOD FOR YOU!!! That's the American way.

Morgan

kuhnkat said...

Morgan,

every time I hear about Mecha or the other like Morons I want to ask them if they are going to start human sacrifice when they recreate Aztlan!!

I also want to ask them if they even understand much less USE the Aztecs or Mayans or ... math!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

nanc said...

we're all only human and it's high time we made the best of what time we have left.

hey kuhnkat? is it true the mayan calendar ends in the next twenty years? hmmmmm...wonder what they knew?

JINGOIST said...

KK it's sad that there's more BS than good info out there where American Indian civilizations are concerned. The left has been allowed to heist the whole subject for their own political ends. Why? The collective guilt of the white man, for transgressions both real and imagined against Indian cultures. The problem is identical to the black problems we have as far as guilt is concerned.
BTW isn't the real Aztlan a malarial barrier island on the Pacific coast of Mexico?

Morgan

beakerkin said...

Dr Yeagley would be the first to point out the the Aztecs and Mayans were not typical of Native Americans. Our country has a special set of obligations and treaties due to our historic relationship.

I have zero problem honoring those treaties. Yet, the casino bit is a scam. I would not be bothered if the Casinos employed Native Americans and were owned by Native Americans instead of greedy land speculators.

When Native Americans speak with their own voice I am interested. Send the Unvirsity Neo-marxist clowns on their way. Native Americans own their own history and the far lefts abuse of it is disgusting.

nanc said...

you cannot abuse me unless i give you permission, beak. likewise for others. we teach others how we wish to be treated.

beakerkin said...

This is true and Dr Yeagley has his work cut out for him. However, we must honor treaties as they exist, unless one is Ducky.

The illogic of the Duck would have America take more land from those who have little. I am certain the Duck will do a 180 on this as soon as the parties are changed.

He seems less than thrilled with the All in the Beakerkin Family spoof.

JINGOIST said...

Beaker I was in northwest Wisconsin two months ago on family business. My cousin works in one of the local Chippewa casinos. It's owned by the tribe, not "greedy land speculators." If you were to eliminate those "greedy guys", who would you replace them with? They do serve a purpose.

Morgan

beakerkin said...

I have no problem if the casinos are owned by the tribe. However, the opperation should defray the amount of money spent by the Government.

JINGOIST said...

If your point is that they are still getting buckets of "federal welfare" while raking in the gambling cash, I'd have to agree with you. That's tough to stomach.

Morgan

The Merry Widow said...

Yeah, I'd have preferred to see the money go to improve schools, infrastructure, clinics and hospitals and business opportunities! Seems that those indians who left the reservations do better, says something about the reservations and how they marginalize the people! In the 1800's, that may have been the point, but it is criminal to break a people's spirit and leave them with no options, or few and poor!
But, I believe that it is time for the indians to reclaim their humanity and encourage their young people to get educations and go out and conquer the barriers!

tmw

Mr. Beamish the Instablepundit said...

Aztec warfare doctrine was fascinating. Not only was war a religious rite, they had an honor code of sorts. Whenever two tribe-villages went to war, there was an agreed upon set number of warriors from each side to be deployed to an agreed upon battlefield, and if any side violated that agreement (by sending too many warriors, or ambushes outside the designated battlefield, then ALL of the tribe-villages, regardless of ongoing disputes, would unite together to EXTERMINATE the violating village.

It didn't always work as tidily as the idea, but just imagine if the United Nations took its resolutions as seriously.

Russet Shadows said...

Well I'm going to say that I have thought about these issues from time to time. I knew someone who had children with a full blood of a Midwestern Indian tribe (the name escapes me). After he died, they started freaking her out by claiming that they had rights to the children because of the special relationship the US has with their tribe, for their tribe is a sovereign country.

That last part is utter BS and needs to go. If you ask me, one of the biggest problems that Indians face is marginalization by the culture at large. Yes, I am well aware of the pride, culture, and lack of desire to integrate into American life. What I am saying is that they can do that and still pay taxes, like the rest of us.

I propose immediately ending all "special relationships" by declaring Indian states null and void, making all tribes non-profit organizations, and giving the tribes the rights to all lands that they now possess.

That would also close down big hole for the terrorists to exploit. All they have to do is get on sovereign Indian territory (and maybe hook up with some disaffected folks who aren't citizens of the US, but members of a tribe), and who knows what could happen.

JINGOIST said...

There's even more to it than that Senor Beamish. Some wars waged by the Mexica (Aztecs) and their neighbors were planned in advance and waged against each other at an agreed time and place. They didn't use the normal deadly swords embedded with volcanic glass.
They used large clubs meant to immobilize an opponent and take him prisoner.
That POW was then sacrificed on a special occasion on the major temple in that specific town. On certain festivals and religious ceremonies upwards of eight thousand could be sacrificed. Every 52 years it was REALLY bad. That's when they thought that the blood of warriors was the only thing that could renew the world.

How convenient a belief that was... When the corpses of the sacrificed victims were tossed down the steps of the village or city, they were quickly carved up, cooked and eaten or salted for later use. Normally their only sources of meat were chihuahua, guinea pigs, some tapir meat and lake fish. This must have been a protein bonanza for the lower classes. Pheeew!

Morgan

JINGOIST said...

Oh, I forgot to mention that the wars waged for sacrificial victims were called "flowery wars."

Morgan

Warren said...

For Beak and Nanc and no other reason.

I think that many of the reservations are welfare traps. That just enough is doled out to sap the will of young people and a large number of them have had their ambitions smashed.

I think that many of the tribal leaders are corrupt and elders do not encourage their young people. Expecting little, that's what they receive!

I think the BIA is a cancer that needs to be exorcised. That all money held in trust be accounted for and turned over to the tribes it belongs to.

Indians are not ignorant savages and can take care of their own "afairs".

I think too many Indians "dance the ghost dance"! I think they are at their worst when they do.

I think that Dr Yeagley hasn't been interested in what I have had to say in the past and I don't have any idea why he would be interested now.

JINGOIST said...

Warren you make a lot of sense. I'm sick of the nonsense when it comes to the reservations too. I don't know the first thing about Yeagley, but your statements have the ring of truth to them. You usually do get what you expect out of people.

Morgan

nanc said...

dr. yeagley would do well to engage those who disagree with him, warren - he knows this, i'm sure. if for no other reason than to prove a point he may be itching to make.

thanks for paving the way. you're in my top ten people i'd love to sup with! beamish would be the other nine.

JINGOIST said...

What! No supper with the Jewish guy!? I'm just not used to woman having any problem with that....
:-)
Morgan

nanc said...

are you a beamish personality?

Mr. Beamish the Instablepundit said...

Hey! Only one of my personalities has been diagnosed with multiple personality disorder. The others are quite sane. Except the one that likes to imagine training chimps to fire a cap pistol at people for a banana, only to starve them and drop them off in the middle of a crowd with a .44 Magnum. There's something not quite right about that one.

The Merry Widow said...

The maintaining of one's traditions are not that hard, Fla. has Highland Games every year! Can you imagine wearing a wool kilt and tossing the caber? Or carrying the stones? Or kitted out and dancing the Highland Fling? It's done and a very large gathering it is. And are they saying that Celtic Highlanders are tougher than Indians? Well they do run large...but hairy!
Just think,Nanc, all those men, who are man enough to wear kilts! The testosterone probably is steamed in te air!
Good morning, G*D bless and Maranatha!

tmw

nanc said...

i love men in kilts! oh, yeah - and cowboy boots! anybody who can eat haggis has to be tough in my book.

where's my haggis?

The Merry Widow said...

And plenty of salsa to choke it down with! My daughter doesn't understand the hairy chest thing! I told her that's what separates the girls from the women! She ain't a woman yet! Cowboy boots are good too, very manly! I'm not sure about together though, it reeks of overcompensation! I'd question them on it!

tmw

Farmer John said...

Robert Burns...

Fair fa' your honest, sonsie face,
Great Chieftan o' the Puddin-race!
Aboon them a' ye tak your place,
Painch, tripe, or thairm:
Weel are ye wordy of a grace
As lang's my arm.
The groaning trencher there ye fill,
Your hurdies like a distant hill,
Your pin wad help to mend a mill
In time o' need,
While thro' your pores the dews distil
Like amber bead.
His knife see Rustic-labour dight,
An' cut you up wi' ready slight,
Trenching your gushing entrails bright
Like onie ditch;
And then, O what a glorious sight,
Warm-reekin, rich!
Then, horn for horn they stretch an' strive,
Deil tak the hindmost, on they drive,
Till a' their weel-swall'd kytes belyve
Are bent like drums;
Then auld Guidman, maist like to rive,
Bethankit hums.
Is there that owre his French ragout,
Or olio that wad staw a sow,
Or fricassee wad mak her spew
Wi' perfect sconner,
Looks down wi' sneering, scronful' view
On sic a dinner?
Poor devil! see him owre his trash,
As feckless as a wither'd rash,
His spindle shank a guid whip-lash,
His nieve a nit;
Thro' bluidy flood or field to dash,
O how unfit!
But mark the Rustic, haggis-fed,
The trembling earth resounds his tread,
Clap in his walie nieve a blade,
He'll mak it whissle;
An' legs, an' arms, an' heads will sned,
Like taps o' thrissle.
Ye Pow's wha mak mankind your care,
And dish them out their bill o' fare,
Auld Scotland wants nae shinking ware
That jaups in luggies;
But, if you wish her gratefu' pray'r,
Gie her a Haggis! *

* This stanza was originally written out as follows:-
"Ye Pow'rs wha gie us a' that's gude
Still bless auld Caledonia's brood,
Wi' great John Barleycorn's heart's bluid
In stoups or luggies;
And on our boards, that king o' food,
A gud Scotch Haggis!"

nanc said...

i'd like mine with chutney!

Mr. Beamish the Instablepundit said...

I ordered me some haggis once.

Y'know that dimain't nuthin but sheep chitlins with rootybagers, don't ya?