This is an open thread because I think some of us still cling to the old illusions as to what is terrorism. However most of my readers are out in front . The problem is we are clinging to a 1970 mentality that is not relevant.
In the 70's there was a romantic aura that surrounded some . The terrorist was portrayed as an idealist fighing for a cause . There was a twisted for of romance that never had any relation to reality. Thus the IRA ,Red Army and PLO were portrayed incorrectly by a largely left wing press.
What we have learned is that people like Abu Nidal and Mougniyah were basicaly assets of certain rouge states. Most function as mercenaries for a price. Bin Ladden has met with Mougniyah and Abu Nidal. The myth that terrorist do not collaberate unless their cause is correct is also hurting the war on terror.
I think we have to change match the reality of the world today. This is an open thread so I want to hear from everyone . is the old wisdom outdated ?
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As you describe it, absolutely! Until we are able to wrap our heads around the way these Islamist madmen think, we're going to be behind the 8-ball on this. They sure as hell know how we think and can anticipate our moves pretty easily. The only thing that part of the world understands is force. But that doesn't fit in with the far left's touchy feely narrative, so they do everything they can to squeeze the square peg into their round hole.
:-o God forbid I should ever wrap my head around the way these people think. Its pretty easy to see the way they think. They rule by terror stricking and running. They are not men enough to stand and fight unless cornered and left no option and then they get their butts kicked.:-) butts kicked I like that.
People need to see these people for what they are. There is nothing romantic about what they do. They are not freedom fighters, they are not insurgents. They are plain and bloody well simple TERRORIST of the worst kind.
Like cockroaches you shine light on them and they scream and run for cover. They do not want freedom for the middle east they want only tyranny.
Our news media doesnt refer to them as terrorist they refer to them as insurgents,militia,freedom fighters. God forbid they face the truth of what these people are.
The media is protected by our constitution and our troops but they subscribe to the following saying.
Gratitude is a sickness suffered by dogs.
Joseph Stalin
Until the press is held accountable for its actions by the American people they will continue to give aid and comfort to these Rag Heads.
The Romantic Period (music, art, literature) saw a great interest in the "exotic," as the artists of the time termed it. One of the focuses of that exoticism was Araby (as Raphael Patai put it in his excellent book "The Arab Mind"). For example, Rimsky-Korsakov composed "Scheherazade," a beautiful piece of music, which took advantage of improvements and innovations in instrumentation. I'm sure that other examples also support the interest of Romanticism in the "exotic."
Now, Beak, I'm sure that what you meant by "romantic" was not in reference to the Romantic Period, but I just tossed in the above information to show that interest and affection for Araby existed before the 1970's. The very nature of the Romantic Movement was an escape from reality.
Let me return to the 1970's, when I attended university. I heard many spout off that the problems in the Middle East stemmed from the establishment of the modern nation of Israel, i.e., that the native Palestinians were disenfranchised at gunpoint, etc., etc. I admit that, until 9/11, I more or less accepted that concept, but, after doing research of my own, have now come to a much different conclusion: The "Palestinian Issue" is an excuse which Islamists use to rally jihadists, both lone and otherwise. And the goal of Islam is the worldwide caliphate, which has been a big push on the part of all Islam since the death of Mohammad. The true "cause" is not the "liberation of Palestine" but rather the establishment of Islam as the world geopolitical religion.
Furthermore, our textbooks promote the romanticizing of the caliphate. I found the following in Serge Trifkovic's "The Sword of the Prophet," under the heading "Myth of A 'Golden Age':
"With a few exceptions, the contemporary Islamic world is an overwhelmingly unpleasant place. There have been times, however, when some Muslim lands were fit for a cultivated man to live in. Baghdad under Harun ar-Rashid (his well-documented Christian-slaying and Jew-hating proclivities notwithstanding), or Cordova very briefly under Abd ar-Rahman in the tenth century, come to mind. We all know about all that, if for no other reason than because those isolated episodes are endlessly invoked by Islam's Western apologists and admirers... (193)
"Visual, literary, and musical arts of the lands conquered by Islam from the seventh century had to be largely nonrepresentational (in religious art strictly so). The 'golden age' of Islamic art lasted from A.D. 750 to the mid-eleventh century...ceramics, glass, metalwork, textiles, illuminated manuscripts, wordfork...lustered glass...calligraphy, an essential aspect of written Arabic...
"In the exact sciences, the contribution of Al-Khwarzimi, mathematician and astronomer, was considerable...rules for solving linear and quadratic equations...geometry and proportion. [His book's] translation into Latin in the twelfth century provided the link between the great Hindu mathematicians and European scholars. A corruption of the book's title resulted in the word 'algebra'; a corruption of the author's own name resulted in the term 'algorithm.'
"Whatever flourished, it was not by reason of Islam, it was in spite of Islam. In Islam's 'golden age,' there was a lot of speculation and very little application; and for almost a thousand years, even speculation has stopped. The periods of civilization under Islam, however brief, were predicated on the readiness of the conquerors to borrow from earlier cultures, to compile, translate, learn, and absorb. Islam per se never encouraged science...because the only knowledge it accepts is religious knowledge.
"It is said that when the Caliph Umar conquered Alexandria in the seventh century, he had its huge library burned, saying that if the writings contained within were in agreement with the Kuran, then they were redundant and therefore useless; if they disagreed with the hold book of the Muslims, then they were blasphemous and must be burned." (195-196)
Beak, you wrote "The myth that terrorist do not collaberate unless their cause is correct is also hurting the war on terror." Well, the history of Islam is one of tribal warfare. Tribes unite temporarily, a la The Battle of Little Bighorn, to combat a common enemy. There is insight in the following Muslim proverb, as related to me by a former neighbor from the UAE: "'It's me and my brother against my cousin. And when we finish my cousin off, it's me and my brother against each other.' We are the most treacherous people you've ever known." So, even though Saddam and Osama were apparent enemies, their common enemy was/is non-Muslims.
As I see it, were the United States and Israel to fall to Islam (God forbid!), the Islamists would next take on China, Japan, whoever. Were the whole world to become a caliphate (Again, God forbid!), tribal warfare among Muslims would break out.
The reality is that Islamism is another tyrannical and oppressive ideology, like others such as Communism, Nazism, etc. And there is nothing romantic about tyranny. The "old wisdom" was not wisdom at all.
Applauds Mustang right on Bro you and I do think alike on these sub-humans.
And I think it is a disgrace to this country and all it stands for that the Liberal Democrats in our government would believe a avowed enemy over our own soldiers.
Perhaps we should make them all cell buddies. Im sure Nancy Polosi and Harry Reid could make these guys see the error of their ways.
No, wait they would be begging to be thrown to the sharks after 24 hours with any of the Dems in the government.
By the way Mustang, I have heard that from enlisted men who served there not just Officers.
I find it appualing that the press who enjoys its freedoms due to the men and women of our armed forces never seems to want to report these things. They would rather report how terrible our people are.
Do you ever think that the press will ever realize that this is why they are losing the respect of the American People and they no longer hold the sway they once did?
Shakes head sadly I doubt it. They are still stuck in the 60's.
Cal Thomas, whose orientation is Christian Right, wrote an interesting piece, some of which may be appropriate to this open thread, @
http://www.townhall.com/columnists
/calthomas/ct20050629.shtml :
"...Americans are used to instant oatmeal and instant replays, and they need to understand there can be no instant war with instant results. President Bush repeated Tuesday night that this war will take time; it will cost a lot of money and lives, and it will not be over soon. World wars never are, and the president said troops across the world are fighting a global war on terror. Perhaps afraid to offend Muslims, the president did not refer to the real motivational force that fuels the killings and chaos. He said these terrorists 'murder in the name of a totalitarian ideology.' But that totalitarian ideology has a name and a religion that drives its fanaticism. It is Islamofacism....[N]ot only must these terrorists be defeated militarily, they must also be defeated religiously. Moderate Muslims must take the leadership away from the misnterpreters of their faith, if misinterpreters they are....This may not be the war to end all wars, but if it isn't won, it could be the beginning of endless wars in which the United States and the rest of the free world never again know peace."
Whatever one thinks of Cal Thomas, I believe that he's correct in that we're in for a very long haul. In fact, the Al-Qaeda "manual" urges patience on the part of the sons of allah.
If nothing else, nihilists of all ilks are patient and persistent, and they take satisfaction in small victories, whereas Americans tend not to show those character traits.
PS: I'll be offline for a while today, but will check back to see what has shown up on this thread.
You are correct Always. Cal Thomas has a perspective on the real world.
Americans have become to complacent about the real world around them. They have forgotten that there are people out there that would destroy all they hold near and dear.
The only thing Islam believes in is total world domination. That was what they tried in the begining. Look at European history.
It is a enemy that must be dealt with and I prefer to deal with it there rather than the streets of America.
Unfortunately I do believe we will have to deal with some of it here.
Because of the people who seem to think there is a romantic side of this issue.
It is primarily the left that has created the fantasy of poor Muslims driven by despair to do dastardly things. It is also the left that has glorified terrorism. As I understand it terrorism was coined by Edmund Burke to refer to the terror of the French Revolution, which, more than our own revolution has served as the model of most subsequent revolutions.
However, under Lenin, terror became a way of life. I recently read his pronouncements on the use of terror as a way to govern. It was no accident. My own blog reviews how the left could not come to grips with the terror in Stalin’s Russia.
The Talliban rule, the Iranian theocracy, Saudi Arabia – all rule by terror and oppression. It’s not just they way they fight – it’s the way they live. Terror isn’t a weapon of last resort – it’s their first choice. They really thrive on this savagery. Most legitimate struggles by civilized people are shamed by rogue comrades who disgrace the cause. The jihadist and their leftist sympathizers (who call them Minutemen and freedom fighters) aren’t fazed at all by the savagery.
The left seems to find terror understandable and even romantic (as Beak points out). Combine that with a romantic notion of foreign cultures (as AOW notes) and the current PC fashions, you wind up with people just making excuses for the most vicious people (such as the SOBs in Gitmo, as Mustang reminds us). The far left leads when it comes to enabling terrorists. I don't get it: bleeding hearts for terrorists?
Terror is "violence committed by groups in order to intimidate a population or government into granting their demands" and terrorism is simply "the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion."
However, "the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion" quite succintly describes the manner in which the Koran instructs Muslims to spread Islam to non-Muslim lands. Hence, all the jibber-jabber about codifying a definition of "terrorism" into international law. (It's codified there already, by the way, under various sundry categories as "maritime piracy" and such.)
I found the following link interesting, a historical overview of America's 200 year record of dealing with Islamic terrorism (the Marines still sing about it!)
"millions for defense, and not one cent for tribute!"
Also see this article comparing piracy to terrorism.
Here is a glimps into the evil ideology that America and the rest of the free world are up against....
Iran's new president declares worldwide 'Islamic revolution'
http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/05/front2453552.1027777777.html
SPECIAL TO WORLD TRIBUNE.COM Thursday, June 30, 2005
Iran's president-elect has proclaimed an Islamic revolution of global proportions.
Mahmood Ahmadinejad said his election coincided with what he termed a new Islamic revolution.
An American hostage outside the U.S. Embassy in Teheran, on Nov. 9, 1979. The man at right has been identified as Iran's president-elect. AP
"The wave of the Islamic revolution will soon reach the entire world," Ahmadinejad said. "In one night, the martyrs strode down a path of 100 years."
Ahmadinejad, who did not elaborate, was speaking to the families of those killed in a 1981 attack at the headquarters of the Islamic Republic Party, Middle East Newsline reported.
The Teheran mayor has served as a senior commander in the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps, responsible for the nation's missile and nuclear weapons programs, and has been identified as a suspect in the killing of Kurdish dissidents in Europe in the late 1980s and early 1990s.
The 49-year-old Ahmadinejad, who participated in the takeover of the U.S. embassy in Teheran, in 1979, was regarded as the most anti-Western of the presidential candidates. On June 24, he defeated Hashemi Rafsanjani, a former president who headed the Expediency Council, the regime's watchdog over what had been a reformist-dominated parliament.
"Thanks to the blood of the martyrs, a new Islamic revolution has arisen and the Islamic revolution of 1384 [the current Iranian year] will, if God wills, cut off the roots of injustice in the world," Ahmadinejad was quoted by the official Iranian news agency as saying. "The era of oppression, hegemonic regimes, tyranny and injustice has reached its end."
The speech marked the first time since the late 1980s that an Iranian president vowed to export Islamic insurgency throughout the world.
Allies of Ahmadinejad said the president-elect, who takes office in August, would seek to revive the principles of the Islamic revolution in 1978. They said Ahmadinejad would also seek to impose Islamic behavior in public, including strict enforcement of a dress code.
"Islamic and revolutionary culture have been neglected in the past years," Iranian parliamentarian Mohammad Taqi Rahbar said.
Iran has been cited as the leading financier of groups that appear on the U.S. State Department list of terrorist organizations. Iran's leading clients have been the Hizbullah in Lebanon and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad, both sponsored by Teheran, as well as Hamas and the Syrian-aligned Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command.
_______________________________
These islomfascists are being egged on by liberals in America and the EU. Every time a democrat whines about the war, it only enboldens more arabs, sunnis, whatever to join the jihad. Their goal is to rule the world with Islam. Anyone who doesn't bow down to Allah, is an infidel and must be killed according to their islamic laws.
This war is very real and global. It could be the final test of will in the history of earth.
Bush is waging this fight the best he can while trying juggle gigantic issues. He needs to know that the American people are behind him in this fight for freedom.
Liberals are helping the terrorists by whining about the war and the men and woman fighting it. Dick Durbin should be censored at minimum, and forced to resign at best for committing treason by helping the enemy. They loved the lies Durbin spewed, then went out to kill more Americans.
How many men died because of that idiots mouth? He should be dropped smack dab in the middle of Iraq to fend for himself. Then lets here him bash the military, eh? The rest of the liberal wackos can go too!
Mr. Beamish,
The article about piracy gives even more historical perpsective.
I urge everyone responding to this thread to read it.
Ottoman,
Excellent post! Yes, Bush is doing the best he can. Is it enough? I hope so.
Have any of you ever studied anything about Islam?
Don't confuse the religion with extremists. Religion is about spiritual matters. Extremists can be Muslim, Christian, Jewish, Democrat, Republican .......
I am embarrased by the ignorance displayed here.
Do a little digging, maybe start here; (or on your own)
http://www.muslim-answers.org/
I'm not sure who posts anonymously here at The Beak Speaks, but over in my neck of the blogosphere, anonymous posters are assumed to be failed Democrat VP John Edwards unless they sign their posts otherwise.
But to answer your question, Senator Edwards, yes, I have studied Islam extensively.
Did you have a question?
Do you feel the religion is to blame for the extremists?
Should we re-enrgize the Crusades?
Here is a portion of the mission statement from muslim-answers.org:
"Our aim, with God’s help, is to expound the benefits of adhering to the fulfilling beliefs and moderate practices of traditional Sunni Islam. This is of the utmost urgency and importance in an age where Islam, as traditionally understood, is being maligned from the left by Westoxicated Muslims and their half-baked reformulation which is often referred to as 'Progressive Islam', and from the right by Pharisee-like literalists who call to a bland and shallow understanding of Islam which so often seems to result in self-righteousness and disenchantment rather than engendering long-term spiritual fulfillment....'Progressive Islam' or worldly 'Political Islam'--... both of these modernist approaches to the religion are really flip sides of the same coin. In advocating a return to traditional Islam, we humbly hope to provide resources to help Muslims avoid both of these extremes and thus overcome some of the problems that are corrupting and disheartening Muslim communities throughout the world. Ultimately, we hope to help Muslims realize that there is no need for anxiety, since in spite of the myriad of ongoing trials, deadly disasters and widespread injustices facing the Muslim World today, history remains in good hands—and there is no power or strength except in Almighty God."
I note the terms "Westoxicated Muslims" and "flip sides of the same coin."
I'm going out on a limb here. Jason is more qualified than I to address Anonymous....From what I understand from the muslim-answers site, it is devoted to which Islamic sect should be the rightful heir to the caliphate.
There were have it again--the caliphate.
Now, from what I understand of Islamic history, the early period of the four caliphs is the ideal model of the umma, and there was some flourishing of the fine arts; but that model has never again been attained. BTW, the early caliphs weren't particularly interested in spreading Islam, but rather were interested in conquering other lands. Interestingly enough, during this same period Islamic theology was codified, and Islam became a militant faith.
There is still conflict between Sunnis and Shi'ites today, and that conflict dates back to a political split in Islam.
Anonymous,
Re-energize the Crusades? I think not.
Blame the religion for the extremists? I don't think those two elements are easily separated, as the history of Islam is filled with religious conflicts between the two primary sects, Sunnis and Shi'ites. Both sects use the Koran and the haddiths to support their goals.
Please define "fulfilling beliefs and moderate practices of traditional Islam."
Wow What a good thread.
Annon. I generaly do not respond to queries from your type.
1 Christians , Jews , Hidus and Bhudists do not shoot school kids in the back , fly planes into offrice buildings or sing cumbayah or Osmond tunes while severing heads. I do not blame every muslim but to dismiss a religious element is shortb of the truth as well.
Glad you brought up the Crusades are you now going to discuss 1300 years of colonialism , jim crow dhimi laws against indigenous people Jews and Christians.Are you going to play the western PC game ?
Name a religion not in current or historical conflict with Islam other then Shintoism.
The whole rest of the world is the problem. Read Fred Isaac an Assyrian Christian and terror is a part of Islamic history of coercion of indigenous people to convert or leave.
What can you say about a religion that brings forth the new initiate, not of their own free will, but at the point of a gun? What more can be said about Islam other than you either agree with the insane Imam, or he has you killed?
I can only speak for myself, of course, and I intend to do it plainly. I have no use for any religion that relies upon terror to obtain and maintain its adherents, and eliminate those who simply see Islam for what it is. I have nothing but disgust for people who forcibly remove from a woman the God-given right to enjoy intimate relations. I deplore those who abuse, denigrate, and subjugate women because it makes them seem like "real men." I find that people who cause others to suffer are pathetic. Who are these people who think, who even dare, to speak for God. Punishment is the domain of God, not men. I pray that these worthless idiots will receive their just rewards, and I'm sure that it won't involve 72 virgins. Which, by the way, is another brainless notion.
Terrorists, no matter what motivates them, are scum sucking bottom feeders who do not deserve any protection under earthly laws. The ONLY solution is to track them down and kill them as violently as possible. Whoever "Anon" is, he or she needs to grow up. There is NOTHING about Islam, true Islam, that warrants emulation by civilized people.
Americans do not see "terrorism" as part of a religious war. I know that terrorists do, but they're a bunch of morons, so who would ever listen to them? No, there is no "re-energizing" the Crusades. For me, the bottom line is simple. Believe in whatever religion you want to, but any relationship between you and God is personal, not political. Do not make the mistake of forcing any religion down my throat. In America, there is room for every belief system known to man, as long as you keep it to yourself. Begin planning harm to others because your Imam told you that to do so is blessed by God, and guess what? You are no longer protected under the First Amendment.
My question is: Are these people really so stupid to believe all of this tripe, or do they collectively suffer from a genetic defect? Hey, I'm willing to learn.
Rob
What other religious groups have terrorism on this scale. Name the number of mosques blown up. I can point to Jewish sites blown up in Turkey Argentina and Tunisia. I can poitoacts commited against Christians in Pakistan, Egypt and elsewhere.
To dismiss the religious connotation is naive. This does not say that all Muslims are terrorists but there is a relationship.
Do you feel the religion is to blame for the extremists?
Well, yes. But not because terrorists misinterpret Islam. Straight from the horse's mouth, here's a nice collection of Hadith (historical records of Muhammad)and verses from the Koran:
-----
Bukhari:V4B52N220 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘I have been made victorious with terror.’”
Qur’an 8:12 “I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle.”
Qur’an 8:57 “If you gain mastery over them in battle, inflict such a defeat as would terrorize them, so that they would learn a lesson and be warned.”
Ishaq:326 “If you come upon them, deal so forcibly as to terrify those who would follow, that they may be warned. Make a severe example of them by terrorizing Allah’s enemies.”
Qur’an 8:67 “It is not fitting for any prophet to have prisoners until he has made a great slaughtered in the land.”
Ishaq:588 “When the Apostle descends on your land none of your people will be left when he leaves.”
Tabari IX:42 “We have been dealt a situation from which there is no escape. You have seen what Muhammad has done. Arabs have submitted to him and we do not have the strength to fight. You know that no herd is safe from him. And no one even dares go outside for fear of being terrorized.”
Ishaq:326 “Allah said, ‘No Prophet before Muhammad took booty from his enemy nor prisoners for ransom.’ Muhammad said, ‘I was made victorious with terror. The earth was made a place for me to clean. I was given the most powerful words. Booty was made lawful for me. I was given the power to intercede. These five privileges were awarded to no prophet before me.’”
Ishaq:327 “Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’”
Qur’an 7:3 “Little do you remember My warning. How many towns have We destroyed as a raid by night? Our punishment took them suddenly while they slept for their afternoon rest. Our terror came to them; Our punishment overtook them.”
Ishaq:510 “When the Apostle looked down on Khaybar he told his Companions, ‘O Allah, Lord of the Devils and what into error they throw, and Lord of the winds and what they winnow, we ask Thee for the booty of this town and its people. Forward in the name of Allah.’ He used to say this of every town he raided.”
Bukhari:V5B59N512 “The Prophet offered the Fajr Prayer [Prayer of Fear] near Khaybar when it was still dark. He said, ‘Allahu-Akbar!’ [Allah is Greatest] Khaybar is destroyed, for whenever we approach a hostile nation to fight, then evil will be the morning for those who have been warned.’ Then the inhabitants came out running on their roads. The Prophet had their men killed; their children and woman were taken as captives.”
Bukhari:V9B87N127 “The Prophet said, ‘I have been given the keys of eloquent speech and given victory with terror.’”
Ishaq:517 “Khaybar was stormed by the Apostle’s squadron, fully armed, powerful and strong. It brought certain humiliation with Muslim men in its midst. We attacked and they met their doom. Muhammad conquered the Jews in fighting that day as they opened their eyes to our dust.”
Tabari VIII:116/Ishaq:511 “So Muhammad began seizing their herds and their property bit by bit. He conquered home by home. The Messenger took some people captive, including Safiyah and her two cousins. The Prophet chose Safiyah for himself.”
Bukhari:V5B59N512 “The Prophet had their men killed, their children and woman taken captive.”
Tabari VIII:129 “After the Messenger had finished with the Khaybar Jews, Allah cast terror into the hearts of the Jews in Fadak when they received news of what Allah had brought upon Khaybar. Fadak became the exclusive property of Allah’s Messenger.”
Tabari VIII:133 “The raiding party went to Tha’labah. One of Muhammad’s slaves, said, ‘Prophet, I know where Tha’labah can be taken by surprise.’ So Muhammad sent him with 130 men. They raided the town and drove off camels and sheep, bringing them back to Medina.”
Tabari VIII:138 “Muhammad carried arms, helmets, and spears. He led a hundred horses, appointing Bahir to be in charge of the weapons and Maslamah to be in charge of the horses. When the Quraysh received word of this, it frightened them.”
Qur’an 33:26 “Allah made the Jews leave their homes by terrorizing them so that you killed some and made many captive. And He made you inherit their lands, their homes, and their wealth. He gave you a country you had not traversed before.”
Qur’an 59:2 “It was Allah who drove the [Jewish] People of the Book from their homes and into exile. They refused to believe and imagined that their strongholds would protect them against Allah. But Allah came at them from where they did not suspect, and filled their hearts with terror. Their homes were destroyed. So learn a lesson, O men who have eyes. This is My warning…they shall taste the torment of Fire.”
Qur’an 33:60 “Truly, if the Hypocrites stir up sedition, if the agitators in the City do not desist, We shall urge you to go against them and set you over them. Then they will not be able to stay as your neighbors for any length of time. They shall have a curse on them. Whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain without mercy—a fierce slaughter—murdered, a horrible murdering.”
Tabari VIII:143 “In this year a twenty-four man raiding party led by Shuja went to the Banu Amir. He launched a raid on them and took camels and sheep. The shares of booty came to fifteen camels for each man. Also a raid led by Amr went to Dhat. He set out with fifteen men. He encountered a large force whom he summoned to Islam. They refused to respond so he killed all of them.”
Bukhari:V4B52N256 “The Prophet passed by and was asked whether it was permissible to attack infidels at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, ‘Their women and children are from them.’”
Tabari IX:20 “The captives of Hunayn, along with their possessions, were brought to the Messenger. He ordered that their captives, animals, and their possessions be taken to Ji’ranah and held there in custody.”
Ishaq:576 “Allah and His servant overwhelmed every coward. Allah honored us and made our religion victorious. We were glorified and destroyed them all. Allah humiliated them in the worship of Satan. By what our Apostle recites from the Book and by our swift horses, I liked the punishment the infidels received. Killing them was sweeter than drink. We galloped among them panting for the spoil. With our loud-voiced army, the Apostle’s squadron advanced into the fray.”
Ishaq:580 “Our strong warriors obey his orders to the letter. By us Allah’s religion is undeniably strong. You would think when our horses gallop with bits in their mouths that the sounds of demons are among them. The day we trod down the unbelievers there was no deviation or turning from the Apostle’s order. During the battle the people heard our exhortations to fight and the smashing of skulls by swords that sent heads flying. We severed necks with a warrior’s blow. Often we have left the slain cut to pieces and a widow crying alas over her mutilated husband. ’Tis Allah, not man we seek to please.”
Tabari IX:122 “Muhammad sent Uyaynah to raid The Banu Anbar. They killed some people and took others captive. Asma was one of the women taken prisoner.”
Tabari IX:123 “Muhammad sent an expedition to Ghalib and to the land of the Banu Murrah. The raid on Amr and Abi was sent to the valley of Idam. Another by Aslami was sent to Ghabah. And Abd al-Rahman was ordered by the Messenger to lead an army to the seashore.”
Tabari IX:69 “He who believes in Allah and His Messenger has protected his life and possessions from us. As for those who disbelieve, we will fight them forever in the Cause of Allah. Killing them is a small matter to us.”
Bukhari:V5B59N516 “When Allah’s Apostle fought or raided people we raised our voices saying, ‘Allahu-Akbar! Allahu-Akbar! None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.’”
Tabari VII:10 “In Ramadhan, seven months after the Hijrah, Muhammad entrusted a white war banner to Hamzah with the command of thirty Emigrants. Their aim was to intercept a Quraysh caravan.”
Ishaq:281 “The Raid on Waddan was the first Maghazi [invasion]. The Expedition of Harith was second. They encountered a large number of Quraysh in the Hijaz. Abu Bakr composed a poem about the raid: ‘When we called them to the truth they turned their backs and howled like bitches. Allah’s punishment on them will not tarry. I swear by the Lord of Camels [Allah?] that I am no perjurer. A valiant band will descend upon the Quraysh which will leave women husbandless. It will leave men dead, with vultures wheeling round. It will not spare the infidels.’”
Ishaq:285 “Then the Apostle went raiding in the month of Rabi u’l-Awwal making for the Quraysh. Then he raided the Quraysh by way of Dinar.” Tabari VII:11 “In this year the Messenger entrusted to Sa’d a white war banner for the expedition to Kharrar. Sa’d said, ‘I set out on foot at the head of twenty men. We used to lie hidden by day and march at night, until we reached Kharrar on the fifth morning. The caravan had arrived in town a day before. There were sixty men with it.”
Tabari VII:11 “The Messenger of Allah went out on a raid as far as Waddan, searching for Quraysh.”
Tabari VII:15 “Expeditions Led by Allah’s Messenger: In this year, according to all Sira writers, the Messenger personally led the Ghazwa of Alwa. [A Ghazwa is an Islamic Invasion in Allah’s Cause consisting of an army unit led by the Prophet himself.] He left Sa’d in command of Medina. On this raid his banner was carried by Hamzah. He stayed out for fifteen days and then returned to Medina. The Messenger went on a Ghazwa at the head of two hundred of his companions in October, 623 and reached Buwat. His intention was to intercept a Quraysh caravan with a hundred men and twenty-five hundred camels.”
Ishaq:286 “Meanwhile the Apostle sent Sa’d on the raid of Abu Waqqas. The Prophet only stayed a few nights in Medina before raiding Ushayra and then Kurz.”
Bukhari:V5B57N51 “The Apostle said, ‘Tomorrow I will give the flag to a man whose leadership Allah will use to grant a Muslim victory.”
Bukhari:V5B59N569 “I fought in seven Ghazwat battles along with the Prophet and fought in nine Maghazi raids in armies dispatched by the Prophet.”
Bukhari:V5B57N74 “I heard Sa’d saying, ‘I was the first Arab to shoot an arrow in Allah’s Cause.’”
Bukhari:V5B59N401 “Allah’s Wrath became severe on anyone the Prophet killed in Allah’s Cause.”
Bukhari:V5B59N456 “Muhammad led the Fear Prayer [Allahu Akbar!] with one batch of his army while the other (batch) faced the enemy.”
Bukhari:V5B59N440 “Allah’s Apostle used to say, ‘None has the right to be worshipped except Allah Alone because He honored His Warriors and made His Messenger victorious. He defeated the clans; so there is nothing left.’”
Ishaq:287 “The Muslim raiders consulted one another concerning them. One of the Muslims said, ‘By Allah, if we leave these people alone, they will get into the sacred territory and will be safely out of our reach. If we kill them we will have killed in the sacred month.’”
Tabari VII:19 “They hesitated and were afraid to advance, but then they plucked up courage and agreed to kill as many as they could and to seize what they had with them. Waqid shot an arrow at Amr and killed him. Uthman and al-Hakam surrendered. Then Waqid and his companions took the caravan and the captives back to Allah’s Apostle in Medina. This was the first booty taken by the Companions of Muhammad.”
Ishaq:289 “Our lances drank of Amr’s blood and lit the flame of war.”
Tabari VII:20/Ishaq:287 “Abd Allah told his Companions, ‘A fifth of the booty we have taken belongs to the Apostle.’ This was before Allah made surrendering a fifth of the booty taken a requirement.”
Tabari VII:20/Ishaq:288 “The Quraysh said, ‘Muhammad and his Companions have violated the sacred month, shed blood, seized property, and taken men captive.’ The polytheists spread lying slander concerning him, saying, ‘Muhammad claims that he is following obedience to Allah, yet he is the first to violate the holy month and to kill our people.’”
Ishaq:288 “When the Qur’an passage concerning this matter was revealed, and Allah relieved Muslims from their fear and anxiety, Muhammad took possession of the caravan and prisoners. The Quraysh sent him a ransom and the Prophet released the prisoners on payment. When the Qur’an authorization came down to Muhammad, Abd Allah and his Companions were relieved and they became anxious for an additional reward. They said, ‘Will this raid be counted as part of the reward promised to Muslim combatants?’ So Allah sent down this Qur’an: ‘Those who believe and have fought in Allah’s Cause may receive Allah’s mercy.’ Allah made the booty permissible. He divided the loot, awarding four-fifths to the men He had allowed to take it. He gave one-fifth to His Apostle.”
Ishaq:288 “Allah divided the booty stolen from the first caravan after he made spoils permissible. He gave four-fifths to those He had allowed to take it and one-fifth to His Apostle.”
Tabari VII:29/Ishaq:289 “The Apostle heard that Abu Sufyan [a Meccan merchant] was coming from Syria with a large caravan containing their money and their merchandise. He was accompanied by only thirty men.”
Ishaq:289 “Muhammad summoned the Muslims and said, ‘This is the Quraysh caravan containing their property. Go out and attack it. Perhaps Allah will give it to us as prey.”
Tabari VII:29 “Abu Sufyan and the horsemen of the Quraysh were returning from Syria following the coastal road. When Allah’s Apostle heard about them he called his companions together and told them of the wealth they had with them and the fewness of their numbers. The Muslims set out with no other object than Sufyan and the men with him. They did not think that this raid would be anything other than easy booty.”
Bukhari:V5B59N702 “Allah did not admonish anyone who had not participated in the Ghazwa [raid] of Badr, for in fact, Allah’s Apostle had only gone out in search of the Quraysh caravan so that he could rob it. But Allah arranged for the Muslims and their enemy to meet by surprise. I was at the Aqaba pledge with Allah’s Apostle when we gave our lives in submission, but the Badr battle is more popular amongst the people. I was never stronger or wealthier than I was when I followed the Prophet on a Ghazwa.’”
Tabari VII:29 “They did not suppose that there would be a great battle. Concerning this Allah revealed a Qur’an: Qur’an 8:7 ‘Behold! Allah promised you that one of the two parties would be yours. You wished for the unarmed one, but Allah willed to justify His truth according to His words and to cut off the roots of the unbelievers.’”
Tabari VII:29 “When Abu Sufyan heard that Muhammad’s Companions were on their way to intercept his caravan, he sent a message to the Quraysh. ‘Muhammad is going to attack our caravan, so protect your merchandise.’ When the Quraysh heard this, the people of Mecca hastened to defend their property and protect their men as they were told Muhammad was lying in wait for them.”
Ishaq:290 “Some Meccans got up to circumambulate the Ka’aba…. Sitting around the mosque, they wondered why they had allowed this evil rascal to attack their men.”
Ishaq:292 “Setting out in Ramadhan, Muhammad was preceded by two black flags. His companions had seventy camels.”
Tabari VII:38 “I have been informed by authorities that Muhammad set out on 3 Ramadhan at the head of 310 of his companions. The war banner of the Messenger was carried by Ali. The banner of the Ansar was carried by Sa’d.”
Ishaq:293/Tabari VII:30 “The prophet marched forward and spent the night near Badr with his Companions. While the Prophet was standing in prayer [asking Allah to help him steal] some Quraysh water-carriers came to the well. Among these was a black slave. Muhammad’s men seized him and brought him to the Messenger’s bivouac. They ordered him to salute Allah’s Apostle. Then they questioned him about Abu Sufyan. When the slave began to tell them about the protecting force, it was unwelcome news, for the only object of their raid was the caravan.”
Tabari VII:30 “Meanwhile the Prophet was praying, bowing and prostrating himself, and also seeing and hearing the treatment of the slave. They beat him severely and continued to interrogate him but they found that he had no knowledge of what they were looking for.”
Ishaq:294 “The Apostle was afraid the Ansar would not feel obliged to help him fight without the enemy being the aggressor and attacking in Medina. Sa’d said, ‘We hear and obey. We are experienced in war, trustworthy in combat. Allah will let us show you something that will bring you joy. The Apostle was delighted at Sa’d’s words which greatly encouraged him. Muhammad shouted, ‘It is as if I see the enemy lying prostrate.’”
Tabari VII:32 “When the Quraysh advanced, Muhammad threw dust in the direction of their faces, and Allah put them to flight.… The Meccan [merchant] force and the Prophet’s [pirates] met and Allah gave victory to His Messenger, shamed the unbelievers, and satisfied the Muslims’ thirst for revenge.”
Ishaq:297 “When the Apostle saw them he cried, ‘Allah, they called me a liar. Destroy them this morning.’”
Bukhari:V5B59N330/Ishaq:300 “Here is Gabriel holding the rein of a horse and leading the charge. He is equipped with his weapons and ready for the battle. There is dust upon his front teeth.”
Bukhari:V5B59N327 “Gabriel came to the Prophet and said, ‘How do you view the warriors of Badr?’ The Prophet said, ‘I see the fighters as the best Muslims.’ On that, Gabriel said, ‘And so are the Angels who are participating in the Badr battle.’”
Tabari VII:55 “Mihaja, the mawla [slave] of Umar [the future Caliph] was struck by an arrow and killed. He was the first Muslim to die.”
Tabari VII:55 “Allah’s Messenger went out to his men and incited them to fight. He promised, ‘Every man may keep all the booty he takes.’ Then Muhammad said, ‘By Allah, if any man fights today and is killed fighting aggressively, going forward and not retreating, Allah will cause him to enter Paradise.’ Umayr, who was holding some dates in his hand and eating them, said, ‘Fine, fine. This is excellent! Nothing stands between me and my entering Paradise except to be killed by these people!’ He threw down the dates, seized his sword, and fought until he was slain.”
Tabari VII:56 “‘Messenger of Allah, what makes the Lord laugh with joy at his servant?’ He replied, ‘When he plunges his hand into the midst of an enemy without armor.’ So Auf took off the coat of mail he was wearing and threw it away. Then he took his sword and fought the enemy until he was killed.”
Ishaq:301 “Muhammad picked up a handful of pebbles and faced the Quraysh. He shouted, ‘May their faces be deformed!’ He threw the pebbles at them and ordered his companions to attack. The foe was routed. Allah killed Quraysh chiefs and caused many of their nobles to be taken captive. While the Muslims were taking prisoners, the Messenger was in his hut.”
Bukhari:V5B59N290 “The Prophet said, ‘The believers who failed to join the Ghazwa of Badr and those who took part in it are not equal in reward.”
Bukhari:V5B59N333 “Az-Zubair said, ‘I attacked him with my spear and pierced his eye. I put my foot over his body to pull the weapon out, but even then I had to use great force. Later on Allah’s Apostle asked me for that spear and I gave it to him.’”
Ishaq:301 “As the Muslims were laying their hands on as many prisoners as they could catch, the Prophet, saw disapproval in the face of Sa’d. He said, ‘Why are you upset by the taking of captives?’ Sa’d replied, ‘This was the first defeat inflicted by Allah on the infidels. Slaughtering the prisoners would have been more pleasing to me than sparing them.’”
Tabari VII:59 “On the day of Badr I passed Umayyah as he was standing with his son Ali, holding his hand. I had with me some coats of mail which I had taken as plunder. Umayyah said, ‘Abd al-Ilah, would you like to take me as a prisoner? I will be more valuable to you as a captive to be ransomed than the coats of mail that you are carrying.’ I said, ‘Yes. Come here then.’ I flung away the armor and bound Umayyah and his son Ali, taking them with me. Muslims encircled us. Then they restrained us physically. One of the Muslims drew his sword and struck Ali in the leg, severing it so that he fell down. Umayyah gave a scream the like of which I have never heard. I said, ‘Save yourself, for there is no escape for your son. By Allah, I cannot save him from these men.’ Then the Muslims hacked Ali to pieces. Abd al-Rahman used to say, ‘May Allah have mercy on Bial [a slave turned Muslim marauder]! I lost my coats of mail, and he deprived me of my captives.’”
Bukhari:V5B59N297 “The Prophet faced the Ka’aba and invoked evil on the Quraysh people.”
Bukhari: V5B59N397 “Allah’s Apostle raised his head after bowing the first Rak’a of the morning prayer. He said, ‘O Allah! Curse so-and-so and so-and-so.’ After he had invoked evil upon them, Allah revealed: ‘Your Lord will send thousands of angels riding upon chargers sweeping down as a form of good tidings to reassure you that victory comes from Him. He will cut off parts of the unbelievers, overthrow them, and turn them back in frustration. For Allah is forgiving and kind.’” [3:124]
Ishaq:303 “A cousin and I mounted a hill from which we could overlook Badr and see who would be defeated, so that we could join in the plundering afterwards. I was pursuing one of the Meccan polytheists in order to smite him, when his head suddenly fell off before my sword touched him. Then I knew that someone other than I had killed him.”
Tabari VII:61 “When the Prophet had finished with his enemy, he gave orders that Abu Jahl should be found among the dead. He said, ‘O Allah, do not let him escape!’ The first man who encountered Abu Jahl yelled out and I made him my mark. When he was within my reach, I attacked him and struck him a blow which severed his foot and half his leg. By Allah, when it flew off I could only compare it to a date-stone which flies out of a crusher when it is struck. Then his son hit me on the shoulder and cut off my arm. It dangled at my side from a piece of skin. The fighting prevented me from reaching him after that. I fought the whole day, dragging my arm behind me. When it began to hurt me, I put my foot on it and stood until I pulled it off.’”
Ishaq:304 “Abd Allah bin Mas’ud said, ‘I found Abu Jahl in the throws of death. I put my foot on his neck because he had grabbed me once at Mecca and had hurt me. Then I said, Has Allah disgraced you and put you to shame, O enemy of Allah?’ ‘In what way has he disgraced me?’ he asked. ‘Am I anything more important than a man whom you have killed?’”
Bukhari:V5B59N298 “Abu Jahl said, ‘You should not be proud that you have killed me.’”
Ishaq:304/Tabari VII:62 “I cut off Abu Jahl’s head and brought it to the Messenger. ‘O Allah’s Prophet, this is the head of the enemy of Allah.’ Muhammad said, ‘Praise be to Allah.’”
Ishaq:305 “Ukkasha fought until he broke his sword. He came to the Apostle who gave him a wooden cudgel telling him to fight with that. He brandished it and it became a brilliant weapon. Allah gave him victory while he wielded it. He took that weapon with him to every raid he fought with Allah’s Apostle until he was killed in the rebellion. These were his dying words: ‘What do you think about when you kill people? Are these not men just because they are not Muslims?’”
Ishaq:315 “It was so criminal, men could hardly imagine it. Muhammad was ennobled because of the bloody fighting. I swear we shall never lack soldiers, nor army leaders. Driving before us infidels until we subdue them with a halter above their noses and a branding iron. We will drive them to the ends of the earth. We will pursue them on horse and on foot. We will never deviate from fighting in our cause. We will bring upon the infidels the fate of the Ad and Jurhum. Any people that disobey Muhammad will pay for it. If you do not surrender to Islam, then you will live to regret it. You will be shamed in Hell, forced to wear a garment of molten pitch forever!”
Ishaq:310 “A Meccan said, ‘As soon as we were confronted by the raiding party, we turned our backs and they started killing and capturing us at their pleasure. Some of our men turned tail humiliated. Allah smote some of us with pustules from which we died.’”
Ishaq:311 “When the Quraysh began to bewail their dead, consumed in sorrow, one said, ‘Do not do this for Muhammad and his companions will rejoice over our misfortune.’”
Ishaq:340 “Surely Badr was one of the world’s great wonders. The roads to death are plain to see. Disobedience causes a people to perish. They became death’s pawns. We had sought their caravan, nothing else. But they came to us and there was no way out. So we thrust our shafts and swung our swords severing their heads. Our swords glittered as they killed. The banner of error was held by Satan. He betrayed the evil ones, those prone to treachery. He led them to death crying, ‘Fear Allah. He is invincible!’ On that day a thousand spirits were mustered on excited white stallions. Allah’s army fought with us. Under our banner, Gabriel attacked and killed them.”
Ishaq:341 “Allah favored His Apostle and humiliated the unbelievers. They were put to shame in captivity and death. The Apostle’s victory was glorious. Its message is plain for all to see. The Lord brought repeated calamities upon the pagans, bringing them under the Apostle’s power. Allah’s angry army smote them with their trusty swords. Many a lusty youngster left the enemy lying prone. Their women wept with burning throats for the dead were lying everywhere. But now they are all in Hell.”
Ishaq:342 “I wonder at foolish men like these who sing frivolously and vainly of the slain at Badr. This was nothing more than an impious and odious crime. Men fought against their brothers, fathers, and sons. Any with discernment and understanding recognize the wrong that was done here.”
Ishaq:344 “I wonder at Allah’s deed. None can defeat Him. Evil ever leads to death. We unsheathed our swords and testified to the unity of Allah, and we proved that His Apostle brought truth. We smote them and they scattered. The impious met death. They became fuel for Hell. All who aren’t Muslims must go there. It will consume them while the Stoker [Allah] increases the heat. They had called Allah’s Apostle a liar. They claimed, ‘You are nothing but a sorcerer.’ So Allah destroyed them.”
Ishaq:348 “They retreated in all directions. They rejected the Qur’an and called Muhammad a liar. But Allah cursed them to make his religion and Apostle victorious. They lay still in death. Their throats were severed. Their foreheads embraced the dust. Their nostrils were defiled with filth. Many a noble, generous man we slew this day. We left them as meat for the hyenas. And later, they shall burn in the fires of Hell.”
Ishaq:349 “The battle will tell the world about us. Distant men will heed our warning. The infidels may cut off my leg, yet I am a Muslim. I will exchange my life for one with virgins fashioned like the most beautiful statues.”
Ishaq:357 “Their leaders were left prostrate. Their heads were sliced off like melons. Many an adversary have I left on the ground to rise in pain, broken and plucked. When the battle was joined I dealt them a vicious blow. Their arteries cried aloud, their blood flowed.”
Ishaq:308 “Muhammad halted on a sandhill and divided the booty Allah had given him. They congratulated him on the victory Allah had granted. But one of the warriors replied, ‘What are you congratulating us about? We only met some bald old women like the sacrificial camels who are hobbled, and we slaughtered them!’ The Apostle smiled because he knew that description fit .”
Tabari VII:81 “The next day I went to the Prophet. He was sitting with Abu Bakr, and they were weeping. I said, ‘O Messenger of Allah, tell me, what has made you weep? If I find cause to weep, I will weep with you, and if not, I will pretend to weep because you are weeping.’ The Prophet said, ‘It is because of the taking of ransoms. It was laid before me that I should punish them instead.’ Allah revealed: ‘It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land.’ After that Allah made booty lawful for them.”
Tabari VII:98 “The Messenger ordered Zayd [the prophet’s former slave turned adoptive son] out on a raid in which he captured a Quraysh caravan led by Abu Sufyan at a watering place in Najd.… A number of their merchants set out with a large amount of silver since this was the main part of their merchandise. They hired a man to guide them along this route. Zayd captured the caravan and its goods but was unable to capture the men. He brought the caravan to the Prophet.” [If this isn’t piracy and terror the words need to be redefined.]
Tabari VII:98 “The reason for this expedition was the Quraysh said, ‘Muhammad has damaged our trade, and sits astride our road. If we stay in Mecca we will consume our capital.’ …The news of the caravan reached the Prophet, as did the information that it contained much wealth and silver vessels. Zayd therefore intercepted it and made himself master of their caravan. The fifth (khums) was twenty thousand dirhams; Allah’s Apostle took it and divided the other four fifths among the members of the raiding party. Furat was taken captive. They said to him. ‘If you accept Islam the Messenger will not kill you.’”
Qur’an 3:150 “Soon We shall strike terror into the hearts of the Infidels, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority: their abode will be in the Fire!”
Ishaq:395 “Muslims, if you listen to the unbelievers you will retreat from the enemy and become losers. Ask Allah for victory and do not retreat, withdrawing from His religion. ‘We will terrorize those who disbelieve. In that way I will help you against them.’”
Qur’an 33:9 “O ye who believe! Remember the Grace of Allah, on you, when there came down an army. But We sent against them a hurricane and forces that ye saw not. Behold! They came on you from above you and from below you, and behold, the eyes became dim and the hearts gaped up to the throats, stupefied with terror, and ye imagined various vain thoughts about Allah!”
Ishaq:461 “Muhammad besieged them for twenty-five nights. When the siege became too severe for them, Allah terrorized them. Then they were told to submit.”
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To give the Reader's Digest answer to your question, Osama Bin Laden is not an extremist Muslim, but rather a practicing Muslim. The Prophet Muhammad himself was a terrorist.
Rob I do not blame all Muslims for terror but there is a decided problem. The KKK was evil but did not represent the majority of Christians.
Islamic history to the current era is 1300 years of colonializm and brutality against indigenous people. The example of Western Colonialism fails as Westerners have left most of their colonies with the exception of USA, Canada and Australia . Those countries are accerpting third world immigrants today. Islam is on land it conquered and is still abusing
indigenous people today.
Do Christians, Hindus and Jews fight in India ? Do Christians fight with Bhudists in the current era ? There is a decided problem and remember Islam does not meaan Peace it means submission.
Ignoring the history of Islam is just shortsighted.
The problem, Robert, is that some religions can change and some like Islam are inherently flawed. Terror for the Islamic religion is congenital – it is embodied in the very life of the founder of the religion. Beamish gave you a sample above. Jesus set a very different example. I’m not religious but I can appreciate the clear difference. Now, it is true that Christians haven’t always behaved well but in the last several centuries it is only among Christians that stable free and peaceful societies have emerged. Others are now emulating the West.
Of course, not all Muslims (and there are many here in NYC) follow their religion and some are indeed peaceful. That’s great. That’s why I say for Muslims there is an urgent need to encourage secularism and leave the religion behind. Actually, even if they became Buddhists or Methodists, I certainly sleep better. Wouldn't you?
Robert Ryan I agree with your approach. Certainly extremists twist something of value to gain leverage.
Let's face it, there are things in the First Testiment that could be twisted into leverage too. Maybe we understand that book better.
What it boils down to, is that a person who kills is the person in charge of his actions - no matter his excuse.
Robert Bayn (sorry about that)
Again I totaly agree. In reality I feel most Americans agree, yet we hear so much from our own fringes.
A shake of the hand.......
Gary
(prev. anon)
Let me take that fringes comment one step farther.
Most likely, assuredly in my opinion, what the Muslims hold against Americans (as opposed to policy) is what they hear fom our fringes - not the majority.
To Anonymous and Robert Bayn,
Two questions:
If "Islam is the religion of peace" then would it not follow that an "Islamic extremist" would be a pacifist?
Why is this not the case?
Pop quiz for those who have studied Islam:
What does Islam say must occur before the "Day of Ressurection" will come?
Hint: It involves talking trees and Jews fleeing for their lives.
mr beamish said:
If "Islam is the religion of peace" then would it not follow that an "Islamic extremist" would be a pacifist?
mr beamish as one who has traveled extensively in the middle east I would ask which sect of the Islamic faith are you speaking.
Whabist?
Suni?
Sheite?
Just as in christianity and judaism there are different sects.
The extermist we are fighting follow the Whabist form of Islam which is totally stuck in the 12th century. Saudia Arabia's national religion is Whabist. They consider even other muslims that are not whabist to be infidels.
In my travels I never felt uncomfortable in Suni or Sheite dominated parts of the middle east only in Saudia Arabia where you are kept segregated from the population and where the hatred for the west is taught daily in the mosques and schools. Now they are trying to change this but it will take a long time.
I was welcomed into strangers homes and treated as a specail guest that is the custom in the middle east but not in Saudia Arabia. Doesnt anyone find it just a little strange the terrorist of 9-11 were Saudi's not Sunis or Sheites. Sure you have some extremist in all groups but that goes world wide with any religion.
As for your question of the Day of Resurection. What does the Bible say must happen before the day of resurection. Does it not say all those who are not Christian will be condemend to a burning lake of fire with Satan and his followers.
Does the old testament not show a God of anger and hate?
Before we level a charge that all who practice Islam are bad we had best look to our own religions and what the true underlying teachings are.
You have bad apples in every barrel and they have to be rooted out.
When Christian Churches teach hate against any one segment of society are you going to be suprised when some one acts on that hate. It does happen daily in this country just because the media does not report it doesnt mean it doesnt happen.
The problem, Justin, is that there are not really different sects in Islam like there are in Christianity. I once had a conversation with a Muslim from Jakarta and asked him the following question: Why should I assume that the different Islamic groups are as different as Catholics and Baptists? Why isn’t the appropriate analogy Dominicans and Franciscans? Are the Muslim groups as different as Christian sects or Christian orders? He was very honest and said there is very little difference in the beliefs of the various Islamic groups.
You can't just assume a priori that all religions are alike. There is no law of nature that makes this so. You have to study the doctrines. What have you read?
Let me ask you and Robert one question: How do you know it is the jihadists that distort the doctrines of Islam and not the moderates?
Ummmmm Jason being a former Priest I have studied most religions out there.
Now my question to you how do you know its not the moderates that distort christianity and not the extreme evangelical. That makes about as much sense as your question jason. There are difference in all religions including islam. What you choose to believe is up to you no matter how misguided it might be.
oh and jason I now work for a muslim from China. Wowwwwwwwwwww imagine that. How many trips have you made to the middle east jason.
that should read justin said not jason said hmmmmm
You haven't answered my question, what have you read? On what grounds do you believe the moderates are correct about Islam? I'm not religious but I never start with the assumption that all religions are the same anymore than all philosophies are the same. What's you basis for your belief? If you meet someone who says they are a Muslim, how do you know if they correctly understand Islam? On what basis?
jason i am not going to argue with your stupid symantics. I answered your question. let me repeat it ok
Jason being a former Priest I have studied most religions out there.
now i will say this very slowly so you can understand. I even have studied islam and the history of islam.
if you had read my post you would have seen i have traveled the middle east ie: Jordan,Iraq,Saudia Arabia, UAE and Egypt so I would very strongly suspect those people are muslim and therefore would know what islam is and what it is not.
and to clarify for you I never said all religions are the same. I said all religions are the same in the aspect that they all have their extremist and their moderates. if you dont understand that then there is nothing more i can do to help you.
now you never answered my question. when was the last time you were in the middle east or any middle eastern country.
You said
"If you meet someone who says they are a Muslim, how do you know if they correctly understand Islam? On what basis?"
I guess that could apply to your man from Jakarta hmmmmm. And I guess you overlooked the fact that my boss is chinese and muslim.
shakes head.
As for your question of the Day of Resurection. What does the Bible say must happen before the day of resurection. Does it not say all those who are not Christian will be condemend to a burning lake of fire with Satan and his followers.
Actually it does not. My Bible says heaven is filled will multitudes from every nation, tribe, and language. The only ethnic group in heaven specifically named as being present there are Jews.
On the other hand, it does not specifically say "The day of ressurection shall not arrive until the Moslems make war against the Jews and kill them, and until a Jew hiding behind a rock and a tree, and the rock and tree will say, "Oh Moslem, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!" as Sahih Bukhari reports Muhammad as saying.
If we accept both Christian and Muslim visions of the Judgement Day / Day of Ressurection as accurate prophecies, we can only conclude Islam is the false global theocratic system brought about by the Antichrist prior to his involvement in leading a genocidal war upon Israel culminating in a battle at Har Megiddo.
You may now put your socks back on (sorry if I knocked them off)
The book of Revelation is open to several interpretations. Therefore, there are different eschatologies within Christianity. LaHaye's popular novels present the Rapture interpretation, but that is not the only view within Christianity.
As long as we're talking about Christianity here...I have seen the case made for Islam's being Satanic in origin because, at one point, the voice of the angel came from MTP's mouth. Some Christians call that phenomenon 'possession' and believe that a demon, which used to be an angel before the fall of Lucifer, was the being who revealed itself to MTP.
I have to address the often-heard comment "I know several Muslims, and they are nice people." Don't we hear the same sort of comment about criminals? Something like "He was a good neighbor. Very quiet. I can't believe he's done this." Not every dangerous person is foaming at the mouth. Furthermore, I believe that many so-called Muslims don't really subscribe to Islam {such as "Muslims in name only"); they were born to that faith and had no real choice to opt for anything else--at least, not publicly. In fact, I know a few immigrant Muslims who came to this country and never again attended mosque.
Lots of people point to the Crusades as an accusation of Christianity. While I'm not proud of that portion of the history of Christianity, I wonder if those medieval Christians weren't driven to such a step--both politically and in reaction to events previously perpetrated by Muslims. Doesn't Robert Spencer have a book on that topic? If the book is not yet released, it will be soon.
Besides, the Crusades occurred centuries ago. Over that vast expanse of time, it's difficult to understand the mindset of the times. I'm more interested in what's happening today.
In addition, I don't hear Christians speaking much about the Old Testament, in which we find that Jehovah instructed the Israelites to annihilate pagan Canaanites, the descendants of which today are Muslims. The OT is filled with the history of tribal warfare of all types; Islam is still rife with such tribal warfare (as in the Sudan).
I'm with Mustang on this: separate government from state religion. Theocracy leaves a nation wide open to extremism in the name of religion and makes the government infallible because it serves as the direct arm of the deity. Theocracy is the chosen form of government in Muslim countries. Dangerous! I don't believe that any "holy book" should be the de facto constitution of any nation.
One last point...When the only sure way to the best part of Paradise is to be a jihadist, I don't want any part of that religion.
Basically, Justin, it sounds like you’ve not very informed about Islam. Talking to Muslims about Islam is like talking to Communists about communism – of course, they make it sound wonderful. There’s not much critical thinking involved here. But I’ll answer your question anyway:
How many trips have you made to the middle east jason?
None. I don’t have to. I live in New York City; the Middle East comes to me. By the way, I never made trips to the USSR or Nazi Germany. Was I unfair in being critical of those “secular religions”?
As for terrorism, I suggest you read about Mohammad’s rule when he came to power in Medina. Jesus never did anything like that. Turning over the tables in the temple just doesn’t compare. Need references?
Jason,
Another of your pithy and pointed comments.
The actions of leader of a religion, particularly those actions which embody the connotations of the faith, speak volumes.
Have a safe 4th!
Jason said:
"Basically, Justin, it sounds like you’ve not very informed about Islam. Talking to Muslims about Islam is like talking to Communists about communism – of course, they make it sound wonderful. There’s not much critical thinking involved here."
You learn a great deal more about people by talking to them. Did I ever say Islam was wonderful? No, I dont think so, I think I said not all Islamic belief is the same.
Perhaps had you ever traveled to the USSR, I dont know if you are old enough to have traveled to Nazi Germany you would have found out that not all the people subscribed to the teachings of either of those. It doesnt make the belief system correct it gives you the understanding of the people. I have read Mohammds teachings jason and my travels in the middle east showed me that a great many muslims find the harsher teachings of Mohammad rupugnant.
You admit freely you never have been in the middle east so all you know is what you have read or seen on television. How do you then discerne what is truth and what is not.
If I were to judge a entire race of people based soley on what I have read or seen that would I am sorry to say make me a racisit.
New Yorkers are not the only ones who lost some-one on 9-11 many of us had friends in the towers that day. Many of us sat and watched in horror with the absolute feeling of frustration and disgust that there was nothing we could do.
Jason it is very easy to say well I read it so that is the way it is. But, is it really?
You’re pulling the old bait-and-switch, Justin. I’ve talked about this before. I make a distinction between, on the one hand, the demographic group called Muslims (and I agree with you about the vast differences), and, on the other hand the religious philosophy of Islam.
You seem to have this anti-intellectual bias against books. However, good authors have spent decades studying the religion and its history. No matter how much time I spend I just can’t duplicate that rigorous study. But I can judge the experts – we all must. This is not just a problem for non-Muslims but for Muslims as well. They have to ask themselves who to believe about the religion. There are ways to approach this.
The religion is easier to understand than the sociology. That’s why I find it odd that you and I disagree about the religion. But so be it.
Have a good 4th AOW and everyone!
Mustang, you are correct I stand corrected and apologize for my cheap shot. I am after all human and subject to error as well.
I agree with you that mainstream muslims need to disassociate themselves from these groups. Many are doing that. They are begining to see for the first time they can stand up to these people. But change does not come on our time tables. I cannot agree however that we lump them all together.
In Iraq we are seeing for the first time muslims rising up and casting off the yoke of their belief system and actually helping American Soldiers. You will never see this in the news or read it in the papers unless it is buried in the back pages somewhere.
What I am saying is if I based my whole opinion of the muslim people by the actions of the terrorist that I see daily in the media knowing what I know for fact having been there I would be a poorer person for it.
Mustang you are correct in one aspect of suspecting their motives. There is a old Ronald Reagan saying trust but verify.
I cannot fault you for your suspicion I too fall prey to suspicion of all muslims but then I remember all the ones I met who were not of this ilk.
Not all muslims are terrorist and not all muslims believe in the Wahhabist teachings of Mohammad either.
Just as there were good people in Germany who helped Jews to escape when the rest of the world was turning a blind eye to what was going on. There are good muslims who are trying to throw off the yoke of Wahhabism and its tyranny and are truely grateful for our help to be able to do it.
I dont want anyone to think I support the terrorist simply because I choose to not to judge the many by the few. That would make me a racist.
Sorry Mr. B you didnt blow my socks off I even still have my boots on. I respect your belief however I will not judge a whole race of people simply based on what their archaic belief system says when I see many trying to change it.
I do believe that Har Megiddo will be brought on not just by a secttion of the muslim world but by a very select section of that world. Iran and will be backed by Russia.
My comment was in reply to your saying of trees talking etc.
Did not God speak to Moses through a burning bush?
Did he not instruct the Children of Israel when taking the promised land to Kill every man woman and child and even the beast of the field but not touch the trees or take any booty.
What I am simply saying is we cannot judge a people strictly on their teachings because those teachings change over time. Many in the muslim world are trying to affect change in their belief system and to their credit they are doing it in the face of death for trying.
There is still however a strong anti Jewish and anti American hatred in that part of the world. And I am sorry to say not just in that part of the world. As it has been since the beginning so it shall be until the end.
You’re pulling the old bait-and-switch, Justin. I’ve talked about this before. I make a distinction between, on the one hand, the demographic group called Muslims (and I agree with you about the vast differences), and, on the other hand the religious philosophy of Islam.
There is no bait and switch here Jason that is a good right or wing term however,since both sides say it when people do not agree with your stand.
And based on your theroy here then I would have to base all Christianity on what I see in the media. Is that correct and depending on what authors I read.
As for intellectual bias against books I dont think so Jason.
I know you do not want to accept that there are different sects and beliefs in Islam just as there are different sects in Christianity or any other religion of the world but that is where you and I will agree to disagree.
Happy 4th of July Jason
Yes, there are different sects in Islam. But all those sects meet in the same mosque. Most different denominiations in Christianity meet in different houses of worship.
The above is my last thought for today. I'm getting out in the convertible to enjoy the nice change in the weather.
ok Im back from riding in AOW's convertible (ooopppps) sorry Mustang. Shes a bad bad girl :-p
No, I think as Americans we must be vigilant. As was said, "Had the strong man of the house been on watch he would not have been bound and robbed"
I'm not sure about where you live but here it is not wahabist. Most of the muslims in our area are Sunii.
No America will not take it lying down the next time. I do have one major concern much more of a concern than what is being spoken of in the U.S. Mosques. Until our Government finally wakes up and does something about our borders we will continually be at risk.
I have heard from several people the same as you their next targets are what are called soft targets. As long as they can come across our borders unchallenged as they can now that is where our real danger lies.
Most of the muslims living in this country now realize the same as you that God forbid it happen again.
We should be pressing our government to absolutely close the borders. Its not just the arab terroist that are crossing our borders it is also the drug rings using the same tactics they have learned from these people. All along the southwestern border both groups have easy access to this country and our Government knows they are criss crossing the borders daily yet it is as if they sit by waiting and doing nothing. Im not talking about just the president I am talking about republican and democratic leaders in this country.
Most of the muslims here came here to escape the tyranny of their homelands. I think you will not find as much of the same wahabist rethoric being preached in their mosques here as you would in Saudi Arabia.
Mustang we do have our own home grown terrorist that worry me just as much as any muslim. Terry McViegh was no fluke.
Okay, guys. Come to D.C. any time, and enjoy a ride in my Mustang GT convertible. Bring the CD's of your choice, and we'll go for a cruise. Mustang, with the right name, gets the first ride.
Justin, I'm not such a "bad, bad girl"--only one speeding ticket in the four years that I've owned the Mustang. My husband, on the other hand, has racked up ticket after ticket. Guess flying along the drag strip doesn't get the desire for speed out of his system.
BTW, yesterday, July 2, we did a cruise-in at the Tastee Freeze out in Berryville, VA. Good music, good times. My Mustang was the newest car there. The oldest was a 1929 Hudson.
However, two of the attendees were dead ringers for the dentally challenged fellows from the movie "Deliverance."
There's nothing like driving through the VA countryside--top down, moon shining, CD system cranked up, with occasional bursts of fireworks (which are legal in the western counties of the state). During times like last night's, I can forget the seriousness of the world situation.
^5 AOW have a good 4th as well.
I'm gonna cry foul on AOW. I've driven in DC rush hour traffic before. I don't care what kind of car you have, you're not gonna go fast. ;-P
Mr. B,
A little clarification here...I don't actually live in D.C. I live in the Virginia suburbs, where, in select locations, one can fly--but at the peril of getting a ticket. I got mine in Great Falls, on Springvale Road.
If you really want to move, go to Tennessee, where they drive "like a house afire."
I don't drive the Mustang into D.C. Instead, I drive my Crown Vic, which used to be an undercover police interceptor. I've rounded corners and busted up ongoing drug deals. And I try not to drive at all into D.C., provided the subway has a station near the attraction I'm visiting. The D.C. roads are in terrible disrepair, and the downtown traffic is usually gridlocked.
I removed my previous post because I made a mistake. I said: I didn't have much left to comment on because everyone here has already said it for me, and I agree with everyone's comments on this post! Correction: I agree with most comments on this post, but not all.
Someone commented that the media refers to Terrorists as "Insurgents" and that's all too true. But I think "Terrorists" is to good for them. It implies they set terror in everyone's hearts and gives them too much power. I believe "murderers" would be a better word, because that's what they are specializing in: the murdering of civilians.
When I was a teenager in the 50's, the movies were full of these people being romaticized as dashing, heroic, and romantic. What a crock! Of course, as a teenager I believed the myth too. But I grew out of it. Evidently many people haven't done so.
Great post!
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