Some liberals are bewildered about my perception of Anti-semitism amongs the far left. I readily point out the word games and absurdity of 167. Do you think that these same liberals would permit word games and conspiracy talk with Gays or Blacks, hell no. However it is okay to paint the war in Iraq as being pushed by Israel and Joooooos.
The statements of Ray McGovern are close to what I heard in NYC regularly. I waited for decent liberals like B (not B personally or Rob ) to join and say this is anti - semitic. Yet when push comes to shove they were silent each and every time . The sole exception was a Salvadoran college student who said " You guys are Red Rednecks lets see Jews run the media brainwash the world and fundamentalist Christians are all stupid and manipulated by the Jews. I would add the disgusting statements often said about Hinduism which is now on the list of official PC bigotry. However don't you even think a single negative word about Islam. There was the myth that Islamic people were persecuted in the USA. The truth was that Jews were six times more likely to be the victims of a hate crime. Gay men were high on the list as well but
behind Jews according to the FBI in 2003.
I pointed this out on the Chemist who said that this was just not true. The Chemist also believes that anti-zionism and anti Semitism are not the same thing. The fact that his comedic friend calls for Jooooos to lay down their arms and be protected by the UN is illustitive. Lets see Israel is a danger to the world but Saddam is peachy even when he launches wars against his neighbors and practices genocide against his people.
People who think Bush, Falwell and Israel are the gratest threat to the world are not based in reality.
Remember those who have yet to share our freedom this fourth of July.
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18 comments:
Beak I cant say I have ever read any of Ray McGovens words and not sure I would care to.
It is unfortunate that there is such a thing as Anti-Semitism yet it exists and it is not a new thing. It goes all the way back through history. All through history there has been the call to do away with the Jews.
I think people should understand that in over 6,000 years of trying it has never been accomplished.
I am not sure who B is you refer to but I can tell you personally that Rob is not one to and never would tolerate anti-Semitism. So dont take that he has never said anything about this personal. As we all do we get caught up in our causes and seem to overlook others.
Beak I dont know if you have ever read the books Im going to list but I would recommend them to all who read and post here. They are fictional mystries however, they do have a errie prophetic link.
The Last Jihad ( was written nine months before 9-11.
The Last Days ( was written 21 months before Arafats death)
I am now reading The Ezekiel Option (erriely it deals with Iran and Russia).
They are all by Joel C. Rosenberg. This man has a uncanny insight to the middle east.
Beak remember there are many of us who stand with you against Anti-Semitism.
B as a government employee i can tell you about weebies. People like McGovern are weebiies. We be here when you come and we be hear when you leave. Blaming Israel for the Iraq war is pure anti- semitism. The I in his famous Oil statement was Israel.
I have zero doubt that you and Rob would do the right thing. Sadly that makes you unique at some point people like you and Rob are going to have to decide when the line is crossed.
yeah, but Falwell still is fuckin' nuts.
excuse me Beak but I do speak out against Anti Semitism. I do not know the person you speak of but if I did I am sure he and I would have some very heated discussions.
Now then as to we are going to have to decide when the line is crossed. When some one crosses the line with me I draw the line pretty quickly you can ask anyone who knows me. I challenge people to back up what they are saying. I do not just take someones word for anything.
It is a shame that there are people like this individual you speak of. I have never been to his site but if you will give me the addy I will gladly go there I will probably be banned from it for good after my first visit because I dont take ignorant statements like Israel caused the war lightly.
And why is it sadly that it makes us unique. Im pretty proud of being able to challenge idiots where ever I find them.
You see I dont go to a lot of blogs and some of the ones I do see I would not waste my time or energy responding to such lunacy.
Primarily I come to your blog and Robs. And as you know I dont agree with everything said on either one of them.
I would defend Israels right to exist to the death if that is what it took. I have no use for the United Nations because they are a bunch of Anti Semite, Anti American despots plain and simple.
I will also defend some sects of the Islamic faith because I know them personally and I know they do not support what the extremist do.
You have extermist in every group. As you have moderates in every group.
I know your comments were aimed at B and Rob but I know Rob and believe me he would take someones head off if they preached Anti Semitism to him. One thing about Rob if he believes in something he is will challenge and defend it to the end.
Robert, B, Justin
I think you are misunderstanding what Beak is trying to say.
He is not as wordy as I.
I would have worded it; I waited for liberals, who are otherwise as decient as B and Rob, to join and say this is anti-Semitic.
Ray McGovern, is just another Sunday School Socialist. He left the CIA in 1985 but feels well enough informed on 'current' events to believe he actually knows something.
Hes just another delusional loud mouth for hire.
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http://www.deceptiondollar.com/news/RayMcGovern.htm
Ray McGovern says Conspiracy theories "should be explored"
By Michael Kane
September 19th, 2003
But in his opinion...
"The real question is how post-911 was exploited...to curtail our freedoms and launch an unprovoked war"
Those were the words of former CIA analyst Ray McGovern on the nationally broadcasted program "Democracy Now!" this morning. Ray appeared with American hero David MacMichael, founder of Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS).
Both these gentlemen were at the 911 Film Exhibit in Harlem on the second commemoration of 911. That evening Ray McGovern (sitting next to 911 Pit Bull Mike Ruppert) came very close to stating Bush had foreknowledge of the events, but chose not to go that far. Instead, he stated the Bush administration's best-case scenario would be to prove it was terribly inept on 9-11-01.
On Amy Goodman's "Democracy Now!" McGovern went on to say that the issue of whether the Bush administration had "prior knowledge" or in some way encouraged "promotion" of the attacks was a "red herring".
He explained this by using the analogy of the Reichstag fire that the Nazi's used to spread fear and anti-communist fervor throughout Germany. He said new evidence shows that one "Deranged Dutch Communist" was the perpetrator of the Reichstag fire. By this logic, what was important was Nazi manipulation of the event, and not the event itself. However, Michel Chossudovsky, professor and author of "War and Globalization, the truth behind September 11th", has stated the issue of prior knowledge may be a red herring because it assumes the Bush administration played no role in orchestrating the attacks.
That is not to say the administration did orchestrate the attacks, rather it reaffirms a truthful point; we still don't know who perpetrated the mass murders of September 11th. With tons of evidence that proves foreknowledge by the administration, their complicity in the events that transpired cannot be ruled out.
On 9-11-03, Jim Hoffman gave what has already become a historic presentation on the collapse of the WTC buildings. I would advise everyone to review this presentation at http://911research.wtc7.net/talks/towers/ . WTC 7 is the only steel building in history whose collapse was attributed to fire, and there lies a possible smoking gun within this presentation.
The fires in the WTC buildings are said in this report to have been no more than 800 degrees C. Steel melts at 1535 degrees C, which means there would be no possibility of this fire causing the collapse (especially in WTC 7). If this one fact alone holds up in the light of day, it will prove there was another element outside of the plane crashes and resultant fires that brought the towers down.
In this context Ray McGovern may be terribly flawed in his statement to Amy Goodman about the issue of foreknowledge. If even just WTC 7 was a controlled demolition of some sort, the administrations "prior knowledge or encouraged promotion" of the attacks are clearly acts of high treason. In this context, McGovern is correct that the issue of prior knowledge is a red herring, but Michel Chossudovsky explanation of why takes precedent.
Even if we place the controlled demolition hypothesis aside, "prior knowledge or encouraged promotion" of the 911 mass murders are still acts of high treason.
anti-c. 2003, article can be published anywhere for non-profit, educational purposes as long as authorship is attributed correctly and report is unchanged.
Rob
Is Howard Dean liberal enough for you. Howard Dean has denounced the allegations that Israel motivated the war in Iraq. The problem with you is that you have a good nature and think everyone else does. 167 has been spreading variations of this along with Holocaust minimization.
You may not define that train of thought as anti- semitic but it is.
Onto Islam and the current age. We do not have Christians, Jews, Bhuddists , Hindus killing civilians on a large scale. The problem is not Islam but our reaction to it. We can not excuse Nihlism in any form either leftist utopian or religious nuts.
The problem with Islam is that we have treated the religion with kid gloves. Islamic nuts blow up Churches and temples regularly but don't you think about putting a koran near a toilet.
The time has come to take off the kid gloves.
1 An honest look at the colonial expansion and crimes of Islam in the same manner as western civ is critiqued.
2 Ending the culture of hypersensitivity. We will make the same accomodations for Islam that we do for anyone else no more no less.
3 Terrorism must be dealt with brutaly. If Hezbollah is found to have any connection to the resistence they and their sponsors should face military reprisals. This means bombing Iran and Syrian military targets.
4 If one is caught raising money in the USA for terrorist groups then one should face a minimum of fifty years in jail with no probation.
Justin there is a reason that in the modern age Christians do not perpetrate violence in the name of Jesus. Jesus himself did not preach violence and it runs counter to his message.
A basic look at Islamic Civ historicaly reveals a pattern of brutality against a range of people. We in the west have dealt with our excesses but Islam has gotten a free pass.
There are peaceful Muslims but they have been silent . Why do most countries have religious police today. Imagine Falwell with police power and that is the reality of life in much of the Islamic world.
There are problems in Islam and even Stephen Schwartz a Muslim readily admits that. He blames most of it on Wahabism but even that answer may be incomplette.
The basic failure is the division of law from theological to civil.
The absence of Civil law has lead to anarchy in much of the Islamic world and a type of hyper tribalism in the acceptence of terror is the result of our benign neglect.
Just for the record and in case anyone is interested...Joel Rosenberg is an evangelical Christian. This past term, his son was in one of my classes. On one occasion, I was privileged to have Mr. Rosenberg speak to my Creative Writing class about some of the elements of writing fiction.
Mr. Rosenberg regularly visits countries in the Middle East, including Israel, I believe. He has mentioned some of his communiques with Benjamin Netanyahu (sp?).
[Pardon the name-dropping above, but I really like Mr. Rosenberg, a very personable fellow and a good writer, though I'm not into political thrillers, not even those of Tom Clancy]
Beak,
I strongly agree with "The basic failure is the division of law from theological to civil." I'm afraid that Stephen Schwartz, a follower of mystical Sufism, is looking at Islam through rose-colored glasses. Generally speaking, mystical branches of faith don't have much impact on the mainline version(s).
Beak said:
"There are peaceful Muslims but they have been silent . Why do most countries have religious police today. Imagine Falwell with police power and that is the reality of life in much of the Islamic world."
True Beak they have been silent just as America and the rest of the world stood silent and looked the other way during Hitlers genocide of jews,slavs,gays and christians. Because of fear and because it wasnt happening to them.
There are problems within Islam and I agree with Stephen Swartz that the major problem is Wahabism. It is a belief system that has not only been supported by the house of Saud but has been exported through out Islam in the mosques and schools. The house of Saud lives in fear of the Wahabist Imams. They are trying to effect change but I question is it to little to late.
In the mosques and schools children are fed a daily diet of hate and loathing for the western world and Israel. Just as the children of the 3rd Riech were brainwashed so are the children of Islam. There are those who are trying to make change happen. But change takes time and effort. For too many years the rest of the world has left this unchallenged and even in some cases supported it by turning the other way when individuals tried to change it and were crushed in their efforts.
The perpetrators of 9-11 were Saudis and were Whabasit. Osama is Saudi and took his Whabasit message to Afganistan.
I am not taking a sit on the fence attitude and giving Islam a free pass however I am looking at the heart of the matter. What part of Islam is the true problem. Until the muslim people deal with that part of it and reign in the clerics and the extremist then the problem will exist.
The people of Iraq are trying to make that change. 8 million people went to the polls to vote inspite of terrorist. And they voted for a more democratic government not a clerical system like Iran. The terrorist we are fighting there are not home grown they are coming in from around the arab world. They are being inspired by some of the teachings of Wahabism. Why do you think clerics who teach something different are being targeted and killed.
Do not lable people who do not subscribe to the theroy that because a part of Islam is bad it must therefore stand to reason all of it is.
I strongly diagree with your post regarding why Christians do not use violence anymore. Its not the Jesus factor there are still to many churches who preach hate and if the law was not there they would preach violent action on that hate.
That is a subject we can discuss later because it can get quite lengthy as to why the main stream churches rejected violence for a more peaceful message.
And BTW Always. To be honest I never checked into his background but that is interesting to know. I find his books refreshing and as I said the man has a insight to the middle east that borders on uncanny.
This comment comes not from mebut from a young Muslim engineer from Morocco. I had along time explaining why the answers to his countries injustices are not found in Marx.
Certain societies react differently to authority. Tell a typical resident of NYC to sweep an area and hand him a broom. If you got me you might get some foul
language and do it yourself. If you gave 167 the same task he would run claiming it was a jooooish/zionist conspiracy. My friend told me his countrymen would keep on sweeping until they were told to stop.
His explanation was that Islam by itself is not evil. However a culture of submission is prone to the abuses of evil men like Saddam
and the Saudi royal family. He slowly came to realize that Marx was another form of a culture of sbmission and became an unusual type a Jefferson quoting Muslim nationalist. I hope he spreads his message.
B
The man was sposored by Conyers who is tied to every radical seditious left wing group. He makes frequent appearences on Democracy Now that is not to be confused with Fox news. He speaks in front of every far lefty group in the country,
The man is also an anti semite,
Whether Ray McGovern is a self described "Liberal" or not makes little difference.
Google his name and scroll through the list of self-described Liberal websites and blogs that cite his sanctimonious, delusional ass as if he was some kind of cross between Damocles and Diogenes.
Your fellow liberals seem to accept him as their own, without question.
If they accepted him as a "truth teller", and tout his asinine pronouncements; the onus is on them to denounce him, "if" they do not agree. Given all of the publicity they have given him, I can only assume they agree.
Robert Bayn said:
As far as america being in Iraq because of Israel that is not false statement but rathier a very true statement. President Bush declared that Saddam was a threat to both the U.S. and it's allies, one of our allies is Israel. As we know from the gulf war Saddam is prone to attacking that country, in effect he was a threat to american allies in that being Israel, so to say we are in Iraq concerning Israel is very accurate statement, and is not Anti-Semetic, but is clearly stating we are protecting one of our Allies. Now sure some may have said Anti-Semetic remarks about jews and what not as far as the Iraq war goes, and of course i stand with those who say that is wrong, but the statement in itself is not Anti-Semetic.
That's a rationalization, he said:
Here
The session took an awkward turn when witness Ray McGovern, a former intelligence analyst, declared that the United States went to war in Iraq for oil, Israel and military bases craved by administration "neocons" so "the United States and Israel could dominate that part of the world." He said that Israel should not be considered an ally and that Bush was doing the bidding of Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon.
"Israel is not allowed to be brought up in polite conversation," McGovern said. "The last time I did this, the previous director of Central Intelligence called me anti-Semitic."
They called him anti-Semitic, because he is.
B
Conyers a great congressman , sure if your district is in Havanna or Bejing. His ties to Communists are public record from at least 1980 Briendel. He is also CAIR's favorite mouth piece on the hill.
McGovern is a far left and as Warren says google his name and look at where he is cited. Democracy Now is as far left as you can get and off the map. The fact that he used to work in the CIA proves nothing as most of those agencies are in reality the old boys club. If you went to the right college you have an advantage.
Jews are not a mere religion as we have a history language and distinct cultural identity. Anti Israel sentiment is anti antisemitism. Howard Dean and Rep Nadler are not far right and they pronounced McGovern's oil diatribe as bigoted.
The truth is that while I respect your intentions B there is far more antisemitism on the left. Playing word games with Jew and Zionist is a standard communist tactic. The hard left is a collection of pure bigotry and anti semitism is just the most blatant.
At a certain point you will come to realize a Communist whining about the mythical evils of zionism
is the ulimate in hypocricy. The myopia of well inentioned people to the evil that the far left has perpetrated is staggering. I respect liberals B like yourself but let me be brutaly honest Chomsky, Hayden and yes Conyers are far worse then Falwell.
B
You are correct about Pat Buchanan and at peace rallies the good leftists are carrying his book. I also have zero fondness for Lew Rockwell types.
Richard Nixon may have said an antisemitic slur or two . However when Israel needed resupply he was there and the unwritten hero was Alexander Haig.
I would add that both Bill and Hillary Clinton have been reliably reported to have made similar remarks about Jews. The matter of slurs is trivial. Hillary also sat by while Ms Arafat accused Jews of poisoning Palestinian water and gave Ms Arafat a b ig hug.
I think the slander of McGovern is far more serious. Conyers is a long time fellow traveler and you can read his DTN file if you like.
There is patriotic dissent like the type I see in Vermont . The difference is that the people here say we shouldn't have gone to war bring the boys home. Then there is Communist agitprop as espoused by the Chemist ( I am not calling him a commie) Bush lied troops died and Bush is the greatest evil on the planet.
B
You will find that conservatives and moderates are more respectful of dissent then leftist utopians. Anyone who defends Israel's right to exist is shouted down by Communists masquerading as liberals. Real liberals like yourself and to a certain extent myself believe in the first amendment.
Nobody says you have to like Bush or his policies. You might think that Falwell is the devil incarnate
but I also have the right to react to your speech. In other words just as you are free to celebrate your speech so am I.
Our country is in a war for survival and I have been there twice. This war did not start on 9-11 either. Now it is patriotic to say this isn't the best way to handle the problem. Marching with known Communist organizations like Code Pink and ANSWER does dilute your message and " Moral Authority". You may not recognize the problem but others do.
Did you hear me screaming when President Clinton launched Cruise missles coincedentally on the day Lewinsky testified. Then again I recognized the serious nature of the problem even if Clinton did not.
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