Tuesday, May 06, 2008

Making False Claims

There are some Obamination types in the media who try to compare McCain and Hagee/Falwell and Robertson with the Obama Wright mess.

This was a personal choice as Obama was an active member of a cult like Church for two decades.
There is no basis for any comparison with a similar claim about McCain's relationship that is standard election visiting at most.

21 comments:

Beamish said...

This is just another example of why I say it is impossible to participate in a respectful, serious, and productive discussion with leftists who will not admit that all leftists are in fact all imbeciles.

The only valid response to anyone who tries to equate a passing association with John Hagee with sitting in Jeremiah Wright's pews for 20 years offering financial support and naming a book after one of his sermons - the only valid response is "You are a fucking moron."

The Pagan Temple said...

Sorry, Beak, but you're wrong on this one. Obama attended Wright's church and sat in his pews for twenty years mainly for political reasons. It was a part of his climb in political circles. I am not defending Obama either, just telling it the way it is.

McCain, by contrast, sought the support of right-wing conservative Christians whom he previously denounced as divisive. Yet, the minute he thinks he might need their help, he goes to them running and pandering, and suddenly all is forgiven.

The main point though, isn't either Obama and McCain. The main point is that the people screeching the loudest about Wright are, for the most part, the exact same people who sit in the pews where the right wing Christian garbage is spewed, and don't seem to mind, and in many cases actually believe in it and actively promote such things as-

*God sent AIDS as a punishment for homosexuality

*God sent a hurricane to destroy New Orleans.

*God is going to destroy America because of our wicked, sex-obsessed culture (video games, music, movie, television, etc.)

*God will damn America because of abortion.

If people believe this stuff, fine. They have a right to believe it. What they don't have a right to do is condemn Wright for believing God will damn America for a different reason than they seem to think God will or should damn America. Nor do they have a right to condemn Obama for sitting in his pews.

If Wright is anti-American, then they must be just as anti-American as he is. In fact, I insist that they are. "God damn America" is pretty strong and foul language, no matter who is saying it, and-uh, no matter what the reason for it is.

Now, if someone wants to attack Obama for his allegedly socialist policies, I will listen and consdier what they have to say. I might agree in some cases, in others, not so much.

What I won't do is seriously consider the legitimacy of what amounts to outright hypocrisy.

Always On Watch said...

McCain is looking to garner votes. Obama, on the other hand, has Jeremiah Wright as his mentor. That's a huge difference, IMO.

The Pagan Temple said...

So in other words, if Hillary went out and sought an endorsement from the Reverend Sun Myung Moon, that would be acceptable as long as she never went to his church and sat in his pews. Yeah, I think I've got it now.

Beamish said...

PT,

The main point is that the people screeching the loudest about Wright are, for the most part, the exact same people who sit in the pews where the right wing Christian garbage is spewed, and don't seem to mind, and in many cases actually believe in it and actively promote such things as-

*God sent AIDS as a punishment for homosexuality

*God sent a hurricane to destroy New Orleans.

*God is going to destroy America because of our wicked, sex-obsessed culture (video games, music, movie, television, etc.)

*God will damn America because of abortion.


Who are these "exact same people" screaming the loudest about Wright?

Oh, I know. You were "just saying."

Ever stop to figure out why reality never seems to be an ingredient of your rants?

The Pagan Temple said...

You rarely hear conservative Christians complain when conservative ministers declare that God will damn America for things like abortion, gay rights, "banning God from the public arena", or crediting God with Hurricane Katrina. When ministers make those sorts of outragious claims, Christian conservatives are strangely silent at best, for the most part, what ones aren't in vocal agreement.

Yet, when Wright's rants become public, who complains the loudest about it? Christian conservatives.

That's just facts. I've heard Christian ministers declare that God will damn America for going on thirty years now. Who knows how long it has been going on? It seems to be a long and proud conservative Christian tradition.

Where is the complaint from the right. The number of times I've heard or read a Christian conservative denounce such rhetoric is few and far between.

Jungle Mom said...

There is a difference in God condemning sin in which the individual knowingly chooses to live in such a way which will bring consequences. Such as a homosexual knowing he or she increases her risk to aids by their sexual activity. God does allow for us to reap the consequences of our life style choices. This is not to say God can be blamed! It is not anymore God's fault that a homosexual acquires aides than it is that a person will become obese by choosing to over eat!

As to a society that breaks God's moral laws, abortion, sexual promiscuity, and the like, that society will bring consequences upon itself which will ultimately bring about it's demise. It is a law, as much as the Law of Relativity. History shows it to be true.
The true Christian needs to teach another way, a way taught by Christ. Those that will listen may be blessed by the choices they make. There is never the need to hate the 'sinner' but often a responsibility to detest the 'sin'.

Ducky's here said...

"McCain is looking to garner votes. Obama, on the other hand, has Jeremiah Wright as his mentor."

Prove it.

Obama went to church often enough to call himself a church goer because thats a requirement for office (have to be a Protestant also, no religious freedom in America). He got a little street cred in Chicago.

His is a very carefully crafted image.
Harvard made him white enough.
Wright made him black enough.

He's just a politician. As phony as any other (including McCainus). No more, no less.

Steve Harkonnen said...

Beak,

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http://www.cafepress.com/misfit410/5298992

The Pagan Temple said...

Jungle Mom-

"As to a society that breaks God's moral laws, abortion, sexual promiscuity, and the like, that society will bring consequences upon itself which will ultimately bring about it's demise. It is a law, as much as the Law of Relativity. History shows it to be true.
The true Christian needs to teach another way, a way taught by Christ. Those that will listen may be blessed by the choices they make. There is never the need to hate the 'sinner' but often a responsibility to detest the 'sin'."

Well, that's exactly what Wright is saying, only over different issues.

I'm not saying either one of you or right or wrong, just that there is not that much difference, other than the reasonings as to why God might vent his wrath on us all.

Rob said...

Well said PT, I could have not said it better!

Jungle Mom said...

Sorry, I did not make the rules. I do not wish ill on anyone for any of those reasons as I know we are all sinful. I pay for my sins as well, And though mine may be different, they are no less or no greater in God's eyes.
We have free will to do and behave as we choose as long as our behavior does not cause harm to another. It is not my place to judge anyone or 'damn' anyone. God can do that in His time without my help.
BTW, I do not care for Hagee either, but I do believe in moral absolutes. I know, it is very antiquated of me, blame it on my time in the jungle I guess.
I certainly mean no offense to anyone reading this...just sharing my opinion.

Jungle Mom said...

Rob,
I did not mean to offend you personally as I do not hold homosexuality to be anymore wrong than any of the sins I commit DAILY. I would never hold any such thing like this against another person on that level. I do feel that the Bible is clear on what is expected of us morally and I take the Bible literally.
Having said that, I often have pondered why some 'preachers' harp on some 'sins' more than others, when God clearly sees all our infractions of His laws as equal.
I trust you will take this in the spirit I intend it. I only wish you the best.

Beamish said...

Ducky,

(have to be a Protestant also, no religious freedom in America)

Nonsense, Ducky.

Count the number of times issues relevant to global Protestants make the news and compare it to the number of times entire news cycles are devoted to one of your fellow Pope-venerating apostates imagining they saw Mary in a rest room floor piss stain.

Beamish said...

PT,

I've heard Christian ministers declare that God will damn America for going on thirty years now.

You go to some pretty fringe churches. Better not write a psuedobiography named after one of those Christian ministers' sermons, and certainly don't dedicate your psuedobiography to them when you're about to run for President,with glowing, loving, warm remarks you'll have to eat later.

That undeniable force that makes Obama and all leftists that came before him look ridiculous is called "reality."

Z said...

Isn't there a big difference in living by the Book on which your faith is based and screaming GOD D AMERICA or calling us GREEDY WHITES, etc etc?

The Pagan Temple said...

Beamish-

"You go to some pretty fringe churches"

It was called The First Baptist Church, and is a part of the Southern Baptist Convention.

I've heard other, similar statements by other conservative Christian churches that aren't part of such a large membership, but still have quite a few members.

At one point or another, be that as it may, there have been numerous churches that have declared God will damn America for a variety of reasons.

Probably the most common one, the one that is most agreed upon, is abortion. Yep, God will damn America for all those innocent babies we have killed or allowed to be killed in the womb.

Gay lifestyles and general sexual immorality seem to come in second and third, but they are also common examples of how most Christian conservatives pronounce God's judgement on the nation, or might if we don't change our ways.

So, do these folks "hate America"?

Or, do they in some cases just hate God?

After all, people accuse Wright of hating America because he accussed the US government of creating the AIDS epidemic.

Well, evidently, since so many Christian ministers accuse God of creating the AIDS virus, I guess they must hate God then, huh?

Or maybe we might just be able to agree that a lot of people are just going off half-cocked and making bullshit accusations based on political issues, and don't really know what the hell they are talking about.

Warren said...

Nostradumbass said:
"Prove it."

I know you'll have trouble understanding this, dumpy. But in his book the Audacity of Hope, Barack Obama called Rev. Wright his “spiritual mentor.”

This would be enough proof for a relatively sane individual, but you're not.

For PT

Obama had his children baptized by Rev. Wright. McCain’s kids never knew Hagee when they were small.

Rev. Wright performed Obama’s marriage ceremony. McCain had never even met Hagee until he became the frontrunner for the GOP nomination.

Obama chose Rev. Wright’s church and attended it for 20 years. McCain has never attended Hagee’s church.

Added to Obama's associations with criminals and leftist, (opps a little redundancy there), and other Chicago political trash and regular criminals and you have a pattern.

You don't hang around a crack house unless you are a customer, in the business or a cop.

Obama ain't no cop!

Beamish said...

PT,

I was raised in a Southern Baptist church and this is the first I've heard of divine damnation coming for gays in the form of a retroviral plague, or specific damnations of America for this or that.

The church I was raised in acknowledged two things:

1. Satan is the master of this world

2. We're behind enemy lines on Earth.

Granted, I've not set foot in a church in nearly 20 years, but I find it hard to believe anything like what you're saying is going on in a Baptist church.

But if it is, so what? Where's the would-be Presidents from these congregations?

What's this got to do with Obama in the flock of a racist theologian like Wright?

Pointing out the alleged non-specific failings of other nameless churches doesn't get Obama off the hook.

Beamish said...

Well, evidently, since so many Christian ministers accuse God of creating the AIDS virus, I guess they must hate God then, huh?

God created everything. That's not an accusation.

I have no problem with the AIDS virus. It does what it is supposed to do.

Jungle Mom said...

Exactly, Beamish!
Aids is no different than say, lung cancer. Smoke and you are more likely to contract lung cancer. Does that mean God hates 'smokers'? Did the government invent 'lung cancer' to eliminate smokers? Some things are brought on by ourselves and the consequences to our actions are our own responsibility.
Nothing to do with hate.