Sunday, July 08, 2007

Time for Christians to take Beakerkin to School

This post is not designed to be antagonistic but the comments of the last few days leave me somewhat perplexed.

As a non Christian, my perception was that a Christian is someone who accepts Jesus as the messiah. Muslims are not Christians as they believe Mohammed is the final phrophet and Jesus is just one of many prophets. The Koran also calls Jesus the son of Mary to deny his divinity.

I understand that the basic set of books in the Old Testament and New are somewhat more flexible than commonly assumed. Eithiopians accept some works such as the Book of Enoch into their cannon that are considered apocrypha in other denominations. Yet I do not think anyone would say that they are non-Christians.

The first part is I want to hear from Christians themselves, who is a Christian?

The second part is somewhat more complex. The books considered apocrypha are a mixed lot.
However, I do recognize the inherent difference between the book of Enoch and the book of Mormon? Yet what role if any should those texts have for religious people. The beloved Rav Roov has read those texts, but at some point I will have to discuss them with him.

The third and last part is that if Mormons accept Christ as their ultimate savior does this not make them Christians. I do grant that some of the notions advanced seem to fall into an area that can be best described as strange. On the whole the Mormons I have encountered are decent people who believe a different faith than I. This is the same way I describe the many Hindus and people of other faiths whose path I cross every day.

This sounds like a job for Rob and Justin.

51 comments:

Robert Bayn said...

Beak, I will make this short as I'm in a hurry.

I'm no theology expert, Justin is well more knowledgeable in that area than me.

But as a Christian, any book not found in the Bible, is to be looked at with a careful eye. I did read "The Gospel of Judas", this was a joke for a book, and even more of a joke for a Gospel. God's Holy Word is all we really need, these other books should play no real role in someones Christian faith.

Mormonism is a Occult, so no they are not consider from where I stand as a normal Christian, or Christian at all. I have no personal problems with Mormons, but much like any other Faith, I would much rather vote for someone who is a Christian and holds the same values as mine, than someone who has name value, and holds a belief which I consider to be a occult.

Who is a Christian? in general you are right, anyone who accepts Jesus as their Lord and Saviour, but in General, Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses are not consider Christians in the classic sense, because they have re-written, and re-defined what the Scriptures really mean.

tmw and Justin know much more about this subject than I, but thought I would throw in my 2 cents, or 1 cents as it may be.

Farmer John said...

Great questions beak. I haven't a clue.

Always On Watch said...

I think that Rob has pretty much said what needs to be said.

I have mixed feelings about Mormons. Not that I accept Mormonism as the truth. And their adding to Scripture is clearly forbidden in the Bible (KJV version is what I use).

But I do know several Mormons who claim Christ as their Savior. If confession of sin and one's need for a Savior to redeem, isn't that Christian?

That said, many aspects of Mormonism are cultish.

I confess that I don't know much about Mormonism. Just trying to wade through The Book of Mormon turned me off. Also, this business of praying "unbelieving" relatives and ancestors into heaven has no basis in the Scriptures.

beakerkin said...

AOW

My experiences with Mormons like your have been positive. Some of the bigotry against them is funny. I encountered a kid who swore that Mormons were involved in the Donner Party canibalism. It seems that the section about the Mormons and the Donner party were on adjacent pages in the book he was reading.

I also do agree that we can not pray relatives into heaven. It would be a nice concept, but redemption isn't easy.

Warren said...

Strictly speaking, The Mormons (LDS) are not Christians but a cult of Christianity.

According to Joseph Smith, Jesus was the firstborn son of an "exalted man" who became the "god" of this world. The man-god of Mormonism was made the god of this world because of his good works on another planet somewhere out in the universe.

His godhood was "earned".

(Sounds an awful lot like L Ron Hubbard got his initial ideas for Scientology from Joseph Smith.)

Clearly, their god isn't the God of Abraham.

Brigham Young, said, "When the Virgin Mary conceived the Child Jesus ... He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. And who is His father? He is the first of the human family" (Journal of Discourses, pages 50-51).

This flies in the face of Christian teaching and is diametrically opposed to Catholic doctrine.

The Jesus Christ of Mormonism is not the Jesus Christ of the Bible.

The Mormon Jesus is the son of a man-god. Their Jesus is the brother of Lucifer, and according to them, he married several of the Marys of the New Testament. He is not, to the them, "God incarnate" as the New Testament plainly states.

They reject the Christian teaching that salvation is conditional on faith, and repentance, and baptism and keeping the commands of God.

They teach that salvation is earned through good works. (That's an oversimplification but still describes their beliefs for purposes of this discussion.)

Then the question to many Christians becomes, if we accept them as Christians, will they accept us as "Mormons"?

Of course not! We Christians believe in God, the Father Almighty, the Creator of heaven and earth, and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:
Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.

To answer you question, Mormons do not accept Christ as their ultimate savior.

I have nothing against them and in this world there are far worse things than believing your salvation depends on your good works.

Justin said...

Hi Beakerman:

First I do hope you will call in tonight to further this discussion and I think it would be a good program for the future of the show.

I am sure I will be brought up before the inquistion here for what I am about to say because every evangelical christian is going to run backwards and start screaming HERESY! But, I have been labeled a Heretic before so nothing new. Since Heresy is a value judgement placed on those who do not accept in total the dogma of a certain established religious belief system. So while Rob and TMW gather wood to put around the stake :) here we go.

Your question as to who is a christian can also be asked what is a christian? It is such a simple answer that has been so screwed up over the centuries by well meaning people who have put up hurdels and put in so many loop holes that it would boggle the mind as just who or what is a christian.

The simple answer is this and it is found in John 3:16:

"For in this way God loved the world: that he gave the unique son, so that all the ones trusting in Him would not perish, but have eternal life."

How very simple and beautiful no loop holes, no hurdles just a simple call to faith. A Christian then is some one who believes that Jesus was the Messiah, the Christos (annointed of God) his Son and follows his teachings which can be found in the sermon on the mount.

And "God" bless their little pea pickin hearts most christian's and churches have litigated,ajudecated and twisted every one of those simple words to mean what they believe. They believe if you say these words mean anything other than the way they see them your just wrong because you do not have the capacity to interpert what you read. Sounds like news anchors huh:).

Now to your question regarding the books of the Bible. We can discuss this as Im sure Rob and TMW will be looking for a lot of wood for a bigggggg fire :).

I must say it amuses me that Christians will say if it isn't in the Bible then it isn't the word of God. Well, they really need to understand that the Bible was not handed to man by God. It was handed to man after being put together by the Bishops of the Constantine councils. The State Church of Constantine put the Bible together and branded any other book or any other thought heretical. Do I believe it to be the absolute word of God. Absolutely not it is the inspired word of God.

After approximately 500 years of meetings they finally decided to make this book The New Testament legitimate they decided to combine it with the Sefer Torah which contains the Mishnah, the Talmud, the Midrash, and more. After all this was a book that prophesied the coming of the Messiah and tied in beautifully with the New Testatment. The first for Gospels were written 40 to 100 years after Jesus's death and the remainder is taken up in what is known as the Pauline Christianity. Which came after a split between the early Jewish Christians and the way the belief was being preached by Paul.

It was then used to demonize the Jews and set up persecutions that have lasted to this day.

Now to Mormonism. I know Rob and others call it an Occult but, is it any more of an Occult than other belief systems? After all Christianity was considered an Occult in its earliest days. After all the book of Luke was written for Theophilus a rich greek who was most insterseted in this new occult.

Now Rob said:

Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses are not consider Christians in the classic sense, because they have re-written, and re-defined what the Scriptures really mean.

Which is not true at all. While the Jehova Witnesses do have a bible other than the standard Christian Bible the Mormons use the Standard Bible. They have not re-written it at all as was stated.

What the Mormons have is a Book of Mormon which is the supposed history of the Mormon People.

After discussing this book with Elders of this church for two years while I deemed the history of the church itself a bit whacko I found that they did not practice the laws as handed down by Joseph Smith. They followed the teachings of Jesus. So they are Christians in every sense of the word.

They are no less Christian than the Methodist,Baptist,Pentecostal or the Catholics. All these faiths have their own history and doctrines which a lot of People find totally unbelievable. Does their Doctrine or History make them non christian. No, their very belief in Jesus as the Son of God, the Sacrifical Lamb for the sins of all mankind makes them Christian.

Rob said:

"I have no personal problems with Mormons, but much like any other Faith, I would much rather vote for someone who is a Christian and holds the same values as mine, than someone who has name value, and holds a belief which I consider to be a occult."

Unfortunately this is the mind set of many in the religious world. Who is anyone to say who is a Christian and not a Christian? While I will accept someone not voting for some one based on values I will never accept anyone saying that some one is Christian or not a Christian. No one has been given this authority by God, Jesus or anyone else.

Remember in the earliest days Protestants were burned at the stake for not being Christians. In other words you dont believe my way you die. Sounds a lot like another Religion we all know huh.

Well Beak, I hope this sparks true discourse and not a lot of insane ranting on your blog. I know there are those who will condemn me to hell but Hey, I have been condemned by others before.

The question is are you so sure your Belief is the only Belief that is acceptable before the Throne of God. You just may be in for a big suprise.

Shalom all :)

beakerkin said...

Justin

What are the extra books of the Jehovas witnesses? Are these the apocrypha like the Eithiopian Churches?

I am certain most would agree that the addition of Enoch would not be considered a huge deal.

Ducky's here said...

Well I can tell you Beak that the Apocrypha is part of the Catholic bible.

devon said...

I think Justin hit it the nail on the head. Anyone who believes in Jesus is a christian.
What people dont understand is that there were alot of other books written about his life and belifs that were not let into the bible some due to what they were saying others because what they said went right along with others that were put into the bible.
What is interesting is that people follow their churches doctrins and are taught to do so by their churches. When Jesus said to follow no mans doctrin. Paul told us to follow Christ's doctrine which can be found in Mat chapter 5 thru 7.

Justin said...

Beak I must say I do not know that much about the Jehovas Winesses or what books are in their bible as I never really set out to study them after having them come to my door for several years. All I do know about them is what I granered from my meetings with them in my home.

I do know they have basically the same bible as most however their belief system is totally different. I do know that when I was a priest this was like throwing a cross up in front of a vampire with these people.

However, few did feel it their duty to convert me :).

They are politically neutral as they believe their allegiance is to God only.

They interpert the scripture literally. They do not believe the soul to be immortal. Those who are not immediately resurrected and taken to heaven are dead for all time with no conciousness. They do not believe in a Hell.

They believe that there will only be 144,000 going to heaven and they will all be Jehovas Witnesses. (Talk about population control.):).

I agree with you the addition of Enoch would not be a huge deal and it saddens me to think that in its earliest conception books were declared heretical and burned. I think there is much we could garner from those books as to give us a good insight to the early church and its beliefs.

Remember in the beginning Constantine told his Bishops to come up with one Bible and one Belief system as there was a religious war raging and yes deaths were occuring over these different beliefs. So a group of Bishops decided what would become the Bible and what would not. Anyone who differed in belief were persecuted and were in most cases tortured and burned at the stake.

There were many gospels that were written down with in a few years of Jesus's death yet, most of those were declared heretical and burned.

I firmly believe that the Bible as we have it today excluding the Torah is not the only truth that is or was out there since the gospels as we have them were written 40 to 100 years after the death of Jesus.

None of the 4 Gospel writers walked with Jesus or were wittnes to his ministry. They interviewed people and wrote down what they were told. Mark is considered to be written down by Mark as told by Peter. This is not verified tho.

As Luke said in Chapter 1

Since many have undertaken to compile a narrative of the events that have been fulfilled among us,
just as those who were eyewitnesses from the beginning and ministers of the word have handed them down to us,
I too have decided, after investigating everything accurately anew, to write it down in an orderly sequence for you, most excellent Theophilus,
so that you may realize the certainty of the teachings you have received.

Luke was a Gentile commissioned by Theophilus a Greek to record stories that had been told to him about Jesus and his teachings.

Does this make its words any less true? No it does not just as the other writings may or may not have been any less than true.

Justin said...

Warren while your definition of what Mormonism was I find that belief does not exist with most of the Mormons I know. They accept Jesus as the Son of God and the only salvation out there. As in all religions you will find some sects who hold on to the old beliefs and will not change it is called Orthodoxy.

How do you answer the people who say that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are actually God? Many people believe this to be fact that Jesus is actually God as is the Holy Spirit. Not 3 separate entities as depicted in the Bible. If Jesus was in fact God does this mean then that Mary was actually the Mother of God? I find this belief baffeling. Probably just as some of them find the belief of Once Saved always Saved.

beakerkin said...

Ducky

Run that by me again. The Catholic Church accepts the apocrypha? Are you talking about Enoch? Which books are you pointing at?

Maybe my definition of apocrypha is way too broad.

Devon welcome to the blog.

This is a tough topic

Justin said...

Beak, yes the Apocrypha is in the Catholic Bible. It is not in the Protestant bible because they had their own councils and decided these books were not fit to be in their book because they were a part of the Belief system of a Church they declared to be Apostate.

While the Catholic Bible does not contain the book of Enoch or the Book of Jubilees and others the ones it contains were declared heretical by the Protestant churches.

The Ethopian Bible is extrodinary reading.

Remember Beak Religion just as Politics is subjective to the mind beholding it.

devon said...

Apocrypha (from the Greek word απόκρυφα meaning those having been hidden away ) are texts of uncertain authenticity or writings where the authorship is questioned.

Enoch was a prophet who allegedly lived from 3284-3017 B. C. and wrote prior to the Apocrypha wirtings which were written before the birth and after the death of Christ.

oh and thanks beak i check your blog now and then but this is the first time i have posted in it

beakerkin said...

Welcome aboard Devon. Religion is not the standard fare of this blog but it is very popular when I do it.

Justin

I will save some of this for the show.

devon said...

what people need to understand is that we all believe differently.
We can all be given the same book to read and each of us will find different meanings in them depending on how we were raised and what we were taught.
I for 1 could read the old King James virsion of the bible and undertand what was written however there are those that couldn't so they retranslated it and came up with a bible written so more people could read it without all the thee's, thou's and thin's in other words they couldn't understand what was written in the 1500's (Elizebethian englis) that's probably why they didn't go see many of Shakespeare's play's

Justin said...

Ok Devon how did you get in here I thought I crashed your puter? :)

For those who dont know Devon is my Messanic Jewish roomate and a good brother in Jesus oooopssss.

And Rob you better not take my disortations as personal attacks on you cause they weren't meant to be personal. And yes I know your out looking for wood right now. After all you know the seceret about Lilith. :) heeeheee

Robert Bayn said...

To say you can't judge if someone is a Christian or not, is false. The Bible teaches us to "Test the spirits, and see if they are of God or not". Was the Waco Texas clan a group of Christians? I say no, as I also say neither are Mormons, it is a Occult, pure and simple.

I guess in this case, I will be Christian fundie, if that means I soley base my opinon on God's Word, guilty as charged!

Ducky's here said...

That's correct Beak, a portion of it. They are called the deuterocanonical texts.

Much of what we now call the Gnostic books are not included, but the bible to Catholics is somewhat different than the King James.

Robert Bayn said...

Lilith is a Lie, and its a conspiracy set up by YOU and Regis!

How dare you!

Justin said...

No Rob, you are not a Christian fundie. My comments were not personal attacks on you. I was simply saying that many in the religious world feel and think this way which I personally think is wrong.

And the scripture you quoted is true but in its full context it says:
"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God:"

Now the Mormons I know, believe that Jesus came in the flesh and was sacrificed for our salvation does this mean they are not Christian because they are Mormom.

I would like to know just what everyone basis this Occult belief on and accuses the Mormons of being Occultist since all religion would fall under the definition of occult.

Occultism:
belief in supernatural forces: the belief in and study of magic, witchcraft, or Supernatural phenomena.

beakerkin said...

Save some of this for the show

Justin said...

Hey Rob:

Even though the story of Lilith disappeared from the canonical Bible, her daughters the lilim haunted men for over a thousand years. It was well into that Middle Ages that Jews still manufactured amulets to keep away the lilim. Supposedly they were lusty she-demons who copulated with men in all their dreams, causing nocturnal emissions.

sonia said...

Organized religion is to Communism what chicken pox is to ebola - a mild, almost inoffensive version of it.

Organized religions imprison people in a moral and spiritual way by imposing various sets of dogmas and laws that have to be obeyed (or else). Communism extends those dogmas and laws into every aspect of human existence, including economy, foreign affairs, etc.

Religion can force you to starve for a month, confess your sins to a complete stranger, wear a funny hat or be forced to stop on every floor in an elevator on a Shabbas.

The only relatively reasonable religion is Buddhism, which is more flexible and allows more personal freedom that all the other ones.

Justin said...

You know I can see it now. Beak is rolling on the floor laughing at this dialogue storm he has unleashed.

devon said...

OMG Lillith shaking head side to side wondering whats comming next

Robert Bayn said...

Sorry I'm a little distracted by Sonia's avatar, whats the topic again?

haha!

Warren said...

Justin,
Each person knows their own heart.

Each Mormon that does not follow the teachings of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, is an unspoken apostate in their own religion and subject to excommunication.

Then I question whether they are Mormons.

You said:
"How do you answer the people who say that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are actually God? Many people believe this to be fact that Jesus is actually God as is the Holy Spirit. Not 3 separate entities as depicted in the Bible. If Jesus was in fact God does this mean then that Mary was actually the Mother of God? I find this belief baffeling. Probably just as some of them find the belief of Once Saved always Saved."

I answer:
In God, all things are possible, and ask; what is necessary for salvation.

I understand what you are saying and I am condemning no one, its not my place.

beakerkin said...

Justin

This thread started as me being baffled as to the hostility towards Mormons. Would we be this hostile towards a Hindu or a Zoroastrian? I do not think any of us would be certainly not me.

The thread opens more questions than anything. A traditional Jewish study of the bible has commentaries. These comentaries do not appear in the Christian Bibles I have seen. However, this does not mean that it doesn't exist.

I am also confused as to the writings of the reformers themselves. Like the Jewish commentaries I doubt the Protestant reformers envisioned their writings as more than comentary,maybe I am mistaken.

Sonia

If you ever get the chance to read Alvin Schmiddt you will see much of what we take for granted as Western Civ has its roots in Christianity.

On a more practical level Communism raises man as God. Yet man by his own nature can not handle absolute power.

Left to their own devices people like TMW and Justin build hospital, schools and real social outreach programs. Communists build gulags, prisons and death. Christians go out of their way to feed the hungry. Communists use hunger as a weapon against the people they claim to speak for. Above all Communists are souless people who do not respect life.

Justin said...

Warren:

There is only one thing necessary for Salvation. That is the belief in Jesus as the Messiah and that he is the son of God born of woman and died on the cross for our sins.

Beak:
"Would we be this hostile towards a Hindu or a Zoroastrian? I do not think any of us would be certainly not me."

Only if they dared to run for President would people be so hostile.

Just think if a Muslim decides to run for President. This little thing of Mormons would be so insignifant. Put a Muslim on the tickent and watch all Hell break loose. :)

beakerkin said...

Justin

You have a good point there. No doubt there will be some examination of Barak Obama's faith.
He is a Christian but some examination of his early years may come up again.

Robert Bayn said...

Obama's Christianity is also in question, based on the Church he goes to, this is nothing new.

Always On Watch said...

Tomorrow, I will be posting a guest blogger's essay as to Obama. I have strong reservations as to his being a Christian. Just because Obama says he is a Christian doesn't mean that he is. And taqiyya allows a Muslim to lie.

Rob makes a good point about UCC.

Warren said,

They reject the Christian teaching that salvation is conditional on faith, and repentance, and baptism and keeping the commands of God.

They teach that salvation is earned through good works.


Well, then I must know a few Mormon apostates. More than one Mormon has told me that he/she relies on the Redeemmer's blood, and not on his/her earning the path to heaven.

However, I have known some Mormons to play word games.

I hope to listen to Rob's and Justin's show, maybe even call in.

Always On Watch said...

Justin,
Wasn't Matthew one of the 12 apostles?

devon said...

the curch 1 goes to does nothing for the person it's his beliefs
If you look at it thru your chruches view many believe you can't go to heaven without being baptised yet the thief on the cross will be (or did they stop the crusifixiontake him down to the river and baptise him then put him back up)Christ said "Because of your belief this day shalt thou be with me in paridise"
It's ones beliefs not his religeon

Justin said...

AOW. This book is question by scholars since it was written around 50 years after Jesus's death. Some do ascribe it to Matthew the apostle but others believe because of the time line it was written that is more than likely written by others from eye wittness accounts.

sonia said...

Justin,

None of the 4 Gospel writers walked with Jesus or were wittnes to his ministry.

Matthew and John were both apostles. Mark was Peter's ghost writer. And Luke was Mary's ghost writer.

Btw, the beginning of John's Gospel (1, 1-14) is one of the greatest masterpieces of literature ever written. Equal to Shakespeare...

Justin said...

As I said Sonia the scholars are still out on as to the book of Matthew. While there is credible evidence he wrote it there is some compelling evidence he didnt.

And you are right the Gospel of is the best literature written.

The Merry Widow said...

Sonia-John Mark was Peter's ghost writer, Luke was Paul's physician AND writer. If you check the letters from Paul, Luke was often mentioned as being with him. But Like did go and talk to the various eye witnesses, especially Mary.
John 1 is some of the most incredible pieces of writting ever, purely lyrical! It sings and dances above the normal human plane of existence!

tmw

Robert Bayn said...

The Book of John has to be one of my favorite Books in the Bible.

Jungle Mom said...

A book entitled "The god Makers" will clarify the doctrine of the Mormon church and expose some of the reasons Christians consider them to be a cult.

z said...

Justin, you said "After approximately 500 years of meetings they finally decided to make this book The New Testament legitimate they decided to combine it with the Sefer Torah which contains the Mishnah, the Talmud, the Midrash, and more. After all this was a book that prophesied the coming of the Messiah and tied in beautifully with the New Testatment. The first for Gospels were written 40 to 100 years after Jesus's death and the remainder is taken up in what is known as the Pauline Christianity. Which came after a split between the early Jewish Christians and the way the belief was being preached by Paul.

It was then used to demonize the Jews and set up persecutions that have lasted to this day."

WHAT was used to 'demonize the Jews and set up persecutions that have lasted to this day.' And where, other than Israel, are Jews being persecuted today?

Also, most feel the Bible, Old and New Testament, are 'God breathed'...that whatever was finally 'decided upon' by man was inspired by Him.

Anonymous said...

Z you obviously never heard of the inquistions and just who was persecuted. You obviously never heard of who was blamed in Germany during the black death and persecuted and put to death.

And no Z Jews are being persecuted in other countries to day.

Read History it might help you.

beakerkin said...

Annon

Christian Anti-Semitism starts with Contantine. Jews are harassed and persecuted today and there are two common denominators Marx and Islam.

Many people like LWB are actual Neonazis that are accepted by Communists because they share a common Judeopathy.

The classic example is noted Communist appologist Renegade Eye who associates with a Neonazi type who repeats the canards in the post above. This is also not a casual poster, but a personal friend he talks with off line.

The Merry Widow said...

Dr. Martin's, "The Kingdom of the Cults" is a classic and covers, jw's and other strange types who claim that they are Christians.
Anon-You also fotget the persecution that anabaptists and huegonauts(sic) suffered at the hands of the rc. At that point, the rc was so overrun with paganism(read "The Two Babylons", you can find it on line)that they had abandoned Christ, and HIM crucified. TRUE Christians do not practice anti-semitism. The cultic "christians" tend toward replacement and kingdom now theology. This is very much the basis of anti-semitism. In Romans 9-11, Paul makes a very powerful case for respecting the Jews as the natural branches, and we who are grafted in will go before them in any judgment.
"To the Jew first, and then the gentiles."
Good morning, G*D bless and Maranatha!

tmw

z said...

anonymous, very brave of you to insult anonymously, isn't it?

Please, tell me another country where Jews are persecuted TODAY...a country where Christians are NOT persecuted, too, that is. Israel, today, is under seige by Arabs, so are CHristians to some extent. Even the hugely secular population of Israel is under attack for faith they do not practice.

I said "Today" because of course I know about the inquisitions (the provoking of which is NOWHERE in Holy Scripture, believe me).

I've read my history to inform my posts here. Read my posts before you respond. thanks.

Justin said...

Z sorry but do not doubt my bravery but when I was leaving at 6:30 am I guess I clicked the wrong box when I put my name in.
Beleive me I do not leave post anonymusly. When I say something I do not fear to put my name on it for you or anyone else.

You obviously think that Jews only exist in Israel in the middle east. Well, they dont and yes there and christians both are being persecuted in the middle east. Try Iran, Iraq to name just two countries.

The Christian persecution is a whole other subject and can be debated as well.

I never said the scripture provoked the inquisition I said the CHRISTIAN and the CHURCH used it to justify their actions by leading the people to believe things were in the scripture which were not. They used the same tactics against the indeginous peoples of America.

Now, I will not say Im sorry if I didnt include the Christian group in persecutions in my post to Beak about how the Bible came to be but you see I dont really give a Damn about political correctess and this leaving out christians seems to be what sparked your ire.

And no Z, to inform you most do not believe that the Bible The Old and New Testament are God Breathed and would have come into being no matter what was decided upon by man to put in there.

Now I firmly believe the Old Testament to be the inspired word of God but, the New Testament is a collection of books written by a lot of different people about the life of Jesus and I do know the history of the political intrigues that went into completing Constantines Decree to come up with one book.

And I do read your posts thank you.

devon said...

seems kinda funny but for a long time the jews muslims and christians all lived together worshiped their G*D and got along sine until the time of the crusades Wnoder why that was and why it can't haappen today

z said...

devon, I'm with you re: all getting along together (are you really Rodney King?!!)

JUSTIN; the only reason I threw Christians into that mix is that I don't see persection particularly on Jews in any country today. I could be wrong, and I"m willing to learn, of course, if you can tell me differently...I hope I'm right; I'd hate to think that's going on now.

justin, I have every reason to think you're a good guy, but read your original post to me. Why did you come off so hard, or am I misreading you? I hope so. That's the only reason I flipped one back like that! Just didn't understand what seeemed like anger.

I think your paragraph about God breathed Scripture is contradictory, but maybe I'm reading it wrong, and I"d really like to know.

Also, I'm interested that you only believe the O.T. is "God Breathed" because there are many who feel the whole book is, that even those decisions 'made by man' are His, that nothing escapes His eye and hand.

I'm sorry for the misunderstanding, and I honestly didn't know 'anonymous' was you...i figured it was someone knew there to throw a wrench into our proceedings.

thanks. z

CB said...

My brother in law and the associate pastor of my church (two different people) would find this discussion amusing and entertaining. My brother in law just got back the first 2 chapters of his dissertation from his faculty sponsor at Vanderbilt. His PhD, once the defense is complete, will be in theology. My associate pastor, Steve, just passed his comps and is now writing. His Ph.D will be in biblical studies.

We are all Seventh Day Adventist Christians, whom some also regard as cult. We believe in the Godhead or trinity, righteousness by faith and in the unerring word of God as expressed in both the Old and New Testament. We believe in the 10 commandments as God's law, including, Remember the Sabbath Day to keep it holy, six days shalt thou labor and do all thy work...and that it is from sundown Friday evening till sundown Saturday evening. We also believe what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 13...the greatest of these is love.

What I find fascinating is the parochial nature of religion and the interest in it by those with no faith at all. Russell (my brother-in-law) and Steve describe the religious studies faculty at Vanderbilt as anything but religious. In fact, most of the faculty regard the bible as merely a political document. Apparently, many of them base this belief, in part, on what has been included in the canon - as opposed to, for example, what has been included in the aformentioned Ethiopian texts.

Of particular interest to both Steve and Russell is a Jewish professor of New Testament studies. She is apparently very tough and to be avoided when possible. She had Steve re-write his proposal because it assumed the historical accuracy of the bible. In her mind, the bible is simply untethered literature.

As for me, while I can talk about the doctrines of our church as compared to others, what I tell people is that my faith is that which brings me closer to an intimate relationship with Jesus. So that I can both enjoy my life now and in the fullness of time he can say to me well done good and faithful servant...enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

z said...

cb, thanks for those thoughts..your last paragraph brought me down to earth...of course, that is THE most important thing.

I have a dear friend who's a 7th Day Adventist and so I looked into this "cult" only to find it's not a cult at ALL, I believe the only even slightly significance in your church and the Lutheran church I attend, or the Armenian Orthodox Church I was raised in, is the day you worship! I get a kick out of emailing her Happy Sabbath on Saturday and she appreciates it so much.

It's very sad to hear even Biblical "scholars" look on the book as 'untethered literature'....you kind of wonder about people who celebrate the birth of CHrist but don't really believe he said what he said, or that it's true. fascinating. It's sort of "look, you don't have to be CHristian, for goodness sake, nobody does, but don't say you are and then don't believe, and even contradict, the guy who started it all!?

thanks..z