Saturday, November 18, 2006

Questions for the religious among us and Farmer John

1 One of my serious issues with Islam is the prohibition of the adoption of children.
The concept that children belong to God is offensive to me. All of us belong to God and how we treat the most vulnerable says much about us. Orphaned and unwanted children belong in loving homes and there has been a Christian tradition of looking after unwanted Children for ages. I am deeply offended by what appears to be a disregard for the welfare of children.

2 Does how we treat our disabled and our orphans speak volumes about who we are as a people?

3 Is modesty passe in today's world where everyone toots their own horn. Is there a religious component in the concept of sportmanship and being a productive member of a team.

4 Are we hurting people with perpetual welfare checks. Is handing a subsistence check forever good for a persons soul? Is there a religious value to getting people work?

5 Does a sense of community still eminate from the Church? It seems that in the current era where people move from job to job and home to home that this has been diminished somewhat?

6 Is there a religious message in Thanksgiving? Do we often forget to be thankful for the things we have and the people around us?

7 Has religion become too touchy feely? Most of us believe in redemption and salvation. However has the emphasis on the consequences of our behavior been marginalized? We know that God loves the sinner and hates the sin. However, shouldn't we understand and accept the consequences of our behavioral lapses.

8 This one is a personal gripe but many people seem to have lost a sense of honor. There used to be a personal code of conduct that seems to have fallen by the wayside.
We have people who use the governments whistleblower sanctions to promote their own careers. In the old days the notion of snitching on a coworker for anything less than theft or serious misconduct was abhorent and people were shunned for this behavior. Nowdays I see people snitching about frivolous matters as a tool to damage the competition at work. Is honor passe or is it something that was illusionary?

9 Do you dread those large family gathering?

10 Do we control our own destinies?

18 comments:

The Merry Widow said...

1-As an adopted person, you know my take on it! Heck, didn't David adopt asically Jonathan's son, Mephibasheth(sic)? He brought him into his house, sat him with his own sons and gave him the same as them. Sounds like adoption to me?
As a Christian, the very concept of adoption is proof of salvation, for you are now "sons of G*D", coheirs with Christ, HE is referred to as our Brother and G*D as our Father! Sounds like adoption to me! The Romans, Greeks, and most of the tribal people had a form of adoption, and that child, or adult was considered a full member of the family and tribe! Only mohammadism forbids it! Tells you how far from G*D they truely are, and how close to te Pit!
Good morning, G*D bless and Maranatha!

tmw

beakerkin said...

TMW

I am certain that this question would probably drive the people at CAIR nuts. This particular issue offends me as it hurts children and to a lesser extent the families the do take them in.

elmers said...

Does a sense of community still eminate from the Church? It seems that in the current era where people move from job to job and home to home that this has been diminished somewhat?

As far as my experience goes it only diminishes if you let it. While I was in the Navy the family of God was one thing I could count on. e.g. While I was living in Guam my wife had to have abdominal surgery when she was 6 months pregnant with our second child. (my wife has crohn's disease). Our church rallied around us, watching my other child, providing meals etc. This sense that no matter where the Navy took me we had a church home followed us for the 20 years of my service. It was something we could ALWAYS count on.

6 Is there a religious message in Thanksgiving? Do we often forget to be thankful for the things we have and the people around us?

Thanksgiving is just one day in 365 that we should be thankful to G-d. Gratitude is a central tenet of our home and is practiced on a daily basis not just on Thankgsgiving.

Good questions Beak.

Farmer John said...

1) One of my serious issues with Islam is the prohibition of the adoption of children. The concept that children belong to God is offensive to me. All of us belong to God and how we treat the most vulnerable says much about us. Orphaned and unwanted children belong in loving homes and there has been a Christian tradition of looking after unwanted Children for ages. I am deeply offended by what appears to be a disregard for the welfare of children.

This disregard is likely due to the lessons learned regarding the harsh surroundings in which a nomadic desert dwelling people exist and their means of flourishing, which largely depends upon the conquest and assimilation of the tribes around them. Their is very little surplus food, and extra mouths to feed aren't helpful for survival. And since every man can have four wives (three likely acquired by conquest of enemies or for tribal alliances), he will never be short of children running around, and "who knows" who the child once belonged to... an enemy or child of a war-bride, whom you or your friends in Allah killed... might grow up and return the favor one day. In other words, children and women no longer capable of bearing and raising children are of little value... and few of the children you actually do produce will likely reach adulthood anyways. And of those, one needs strong sons to protect and defend your family/ tribal group against other tribes or daughters to marry into and secure alliance with other dominant family groups. There is no reliable police or government protection (unless you're part of a dominant noble family) that one can depend upon (which is why disarming the militias in the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan was a HUGE mistake...when the Taliban come back, they'll slaughter America's now-disarmed allies). So unless you are immediately useful to a man and his immediate family group, chances are your going to be on your own and hope the Imam in the mosque is willing to give you charity... which is how the Islamic clerics acquire all their power. It's like living in the times of Homer's Iliad. The democratic city state has not yet been born...

The Merry Widow said...

Do you remember that terrible train accident where the bridge collapsed? One couple gave their lives to save their 12 yr. old daughter who has cerebal palsy and was wheelchair bound?
Then earlier this year the ferry capsizing on the way back to Egypt? In that case it was mostly men rescued, they left their wives and daughters in the cabins to drowned.
Guess which one teaches salvation by giving up of self, and which one teaches that women are of lesser value?
One is of Heaven and the other reeks of Hell!

tmw

The Merry Widow said...

3-Modesty, touchy subject! Modesty is good, but acting like the human body, which G*D created is evil...wrong. It's based on self-respect and dignity! Our girls, young women and men aren't taught modesty anymore, and with the 24/7 sexuality of MTV, et.al. means no sense of sacredness of self. As Christians, we are told that we are the temple of the Holy Spirit, so basically, sins against are bodies and disrespect are sins against G*D. And the churches don't always address it very well. Or the femenist view of women and men discourages modesty!

tmw

The Merry Widow said...

4-YES! Those who will not work, shall not eat! Work well done bestows dignety and self-worth! By depriving someone of that, you are denying their very humanity! It is the same as telling them that they shouldn't try, because they aren't good enough, or smart enough, or capable! What an insult! Plus with payoffs to stay uneducated and unambitious, people develope a sense of entitlement! That brings on all sorts of evils! Rome tried it with bread and circuses, it rotted them to the core! Every virtue becomes passe and honor, diligence, self-control, dignity, respect, prudence...all those virtues built this country and are now ignored by the "entitled" and sneered at by the "elites"! Full circle! When will we ever learn?

tmw

beakerkin said...

TMW

I know you do not lack for charity for those who are disabled or children. Yet one of the great reason for the French riots and lawlessness in the West Bank is the perpetual handouts. People who work and own houses do not burn them. Perpetual welfare turns people into livestock and it benefits nobody.

The Merry Widow said...

Beaker- I think I said that. The case of the 12 yr. old girl was to highlight the reverence for life that most religions have and the total lack of it among mohammad's most punctilious followers. Welfare reduces people to less than animals, and I believe that it was another way to try and keep blacks subordonated(sic.) I believe the act of entitlement is a vast act of disrespect, because it says, you are not smart enough, or hard working enough or good enough to make it on a level playing field! It is an insult to blacks, it says you're stupid and you can't learn and succeed!
As you said, if you work for it, you'll take care of it! If you own it, no one else will take care of it for you! We have taken the right of ownership away. And crippled the children with dysfunctional and destroyed families and communities.

tmw

The Merry Widow said...

5-Yes, not from every church, but from churches that are there to preach the good news, not be "seeker friendly", those kinds of churches are a buffet where you can pick and choose what you want to hear! Not ALL the good news, just the parts they're comfortable with. That is why so many mainline denominations are starting to follow Replacement Theology and other heresy's. G*D's Word is a whole, not a buffet. Take the hard sayings and ask G*D to conform you to what HE wants, not us telling G*D whatwe want HIM to do! We are in a time where many churches have fallen into error, and it's going to get worse! Not everyone who claims to be a Christian, is! But true Christians share a belonging beyond the physical, I have run into perfect strangers who my spirit reaches for and we can look at each other and smile. We know each other in the spirit, we are family!

tmw

The Merry Widow said...

6- Thanksgiving is a profoundly Holy Day! It is a humbling experience to acknowledge that we have nothing to offer G*D, but everything we have is from HIS Hand!

tmw

The Merry Widow said...

7-Sin has become a dirty word, even in most churches. They don'twant to drive people away, or discourage them! Sorry, but I'd rather know the bad news before I'm told there's good news. Good news is useless if you think you're OKAY! Hey, G*D will let me into Heaven because I've been a good person. We've all heard that, I'm sure! They can't relate to it until they realize they really aren't all that good at all!
Going to the 10 Commandments and asking if they've broken any of them is a good place to start. Leftistas may try to get rid of the posting of the 10 Commandments, because they know they've blown it! Now the question is, do I run, deny, moan, groan, complain and blame everyone else? Or do I stand up and say, "Yeah, that's me!"?
The difference between most conservatives and most leftistas. The first tend to take responsibility, the second tend to blame others! I'm in the first group! It's my sin!

tmw

Warren said...

1 One of my serious issues with Islam is the prohibition of the adoption of children.

An Iranian proverb goes:
If you see a blind man, kick him. For why should you treat him with more compassion than Allah.

So it goes through the culture.


2 Does how we treat our disabled and our orphans speak volumes about who we are as a people?

Yes, and how we treat them as individuals too.

3 Is modesty passe in today's world where everyone toots their own horn.

It sure seems like it to me! I find it repugnant. Especially braggadocio. Enhancing your personal achievements are a form of lying. Even employers are expecting prospective employees to lie in their resumes.

Is there a religious component in the concept of sportmanship and being a productive member of a team.

Kind of, as a secondary effect. A religious person recognizes the value of sportsmanship and contributing to a team effort.

4 Are we hurting people with perpetual welfare checks.

Yes, definitely!

We see the effect on a smaller scale with spoiled children. Their parents "buy" their "love" with presents and expensive gifts. After a while, the children develop a strong sense of entitlement. They never form into productive members of society and become cripples subject to their emotions, virtually incapable of holding down a job or providing for their own needs. We have all seen this.

Now let's step it up in scale. Lets look at places like the slums of Indian reservations, Paris, Chicago, New York et al.

Over-aged children with their hand out. Generations of dysfunctional families, single mothers, (there is no reason for the father to hang around.) All clamoring for their "right" to free everything and wanting everything now without work. We owe it to them because they were born and they don't have it because someone else does.


Is handing a subsistence check forever good for a persons soul?

Its horrible for a persons soul! It begs for corruption and sinfulness.

Is there a religious value to getting people work?

Yes, it enhances their self worth and as TMW pointed out very well.

5 Does a sense of community still emanate from the Church?

Depends on the Church and its members. Some are rather clannish.

Being a Catholic its rather more pronounced. I know the service, I know the prayers, I know what the scripture will be on any given day and if I choose I may drop in on a service in another language and follow along and participate in Holy Communion without understanding Spanish or whatever. I know we are all Catholics and profess the same creed.

Of course I might not understand the sermon but I sometimes have that problem with certain Priests anyway. ;^)


It seems that in the current era where people move from job to job and home to home that this has been diminished somewhat?

That's the clannishness I was talking about.

At my church and may others, we appoint official greeters. Their job is to stand in the vestibule before a service and welcome everyone, especially those who are not members.


6 Is there a religious message in Thanksgiving? Do we often forget to be thankful for the things we have and the people around us?

I believe it is very easy to become obsessed with the minutiae of every-day life and forget that we are blessed every day with friends and family and those that care about us and especially our creator that knew us in our mothers womb.

We become burdened with "things", and the material world, not realizing that every "thing" is just another weight added to the burden.


7 Has religion become too touchy feely?

Well, I don't know about you but I like a good hug. :^)

It defiantly can go to far especially when you know that someone despises you and puts on a show of how much they care for you in church.


Most of us believe in redemption and salvation. However has the emphasis on the consequences of our behavior been marginalized?

Yes, I believe that hell is the searing fire of knowing that you are eternally separated from God.

We know that God loves the sinner and hates the sin. However, shouldn't we understand and accept the consequences of our behavioral lapses.

To be forgiven we must repent. We must be truthfully sorry for our sins and strive to repair or make restitution. Thus we are forgiven the consequences of the sin on our soul. However, we are not absolved the corporeal consequences of violating our pact with society.

When a person is punished by society its because they have committed a crime against society, not because they have committed a crime against a person. We cannot function as a society if there are no consequences to breaking the law. It acts as a deterrent to law breakers and the punishment should be stout enough to actually be so.


8 This one is a personal gripe but many people seem to have lost a sense of honor.

Beak, you know how I feel about honor. One of the worse things I can say about someone is that they have no honor. I hold that second only to traitor and traitors have no honor.

There used to be a personal code of conduct that seems to have fallen by the wayside.
We have people who use the governments whistleblower sanctions to promote their own careers. In the old days the notion of snitching on a coworker for anything less than theft or serious misconduct was abhorrent and people were shunned for this behavior. Nowdays I see people snitching about frivolous matters as a tool to damage the competition at work. Is honor passe or is it something that was illusionary?

Its not illusionary, its about trust.

Its dreadful having to watch your back all the time and guard every word you say.


9 Do you dread those large family gathering?

Is a pigs butt pork? ;^)

10 Do we control our own destinies?

Yes, people that depend on luck get struck by lightning.

Always On Watch said...

These are excellent questions, Beak. I wish that I had time to address each one. Alas! I have another MRI early this morning. But I'll take time to address a few of your questions before I have to leave.

6 Is there a religious message in Thanksgiving?

Yes, but not only the religious message.

William Bradford's journal Of Plymouth Plantation makes it clear that the Pilgrims included an element of religion in their celebration in 1621. From this source:

In October of 1621, the Pilgrims celebrated their first harvest with feasting and games, as was the custom in England, as well as prayer....

The Pilgrims would not have called the event of 1621 a "Thanksgiving." The Separatist Puritans recognized three kinds of holidays as sanctioned by the Bible : the Sabbath, days of thanksgiving, and fast days. Unlike the Sabbath, days of thanksgiving and fast days were not part of the established calendar. They were proclaimed by the governor only in response to a specific situation. A religious day of fasting could be invoked by a drought or war. A religious day of thanksgiving could be called to celebrate a particularly good harvest or providential rainfall. Although the event of 1621 is known today as the "First Thanksgiving," that harvest feast had many secular elements and would not have been considered a religious day of thanksgiving by the Pilgrims.


The following provides information about the evolution of our Thanksgiving holiday, from the same source as the above:

The religious day of thanksgiving gradually evolved into a yearly Thanksgiving customarily held on a Thursday in November. As America grew and New Englanders moved to new states, the custom of an annual Thanksgiving Day took root throughout the country. The religious holiday added secular overtones, celebrating abundance, family and national unity.

"The Pilgrim Fathers incorporated a yearly Thanksgiving day among the moral influences they sent over the New World. After our Independence the light crept slowly onward and westward... yet still it blessed and beautified the homes it reached."
Sarah Josepha Hale, Godey's Lady's Book 1865

Thanksgiving was not yet part of the national calendar. The governor of each state would determine when (or if) a Thanksgiving would be held. Thanksgiving did not become an annual national holiday until President Abraham Lincoln's 1863 proclamation. Every President since has proclaimed an annual national Thanksgiving. In 1939, President Franklin Roosevelt moved Thanksgiving from the last Thursday to the third Thursday in November, to extend the Christmas shopping season. In 1941, this unpopular move inspired Congress to permanently fix the date on the fourth Thursday of November.


Do we often forget to be thankful for the things we have and the people around us?

In the hustle and bustle of daily life, yes. But we SHOULD be ever mindful of the blessings we have and focus on those blessings.

9 Do you dread those large family gathering?

I never dreaded them. Now our family is so small that family gatherings are no longer possible. Too many family members have passed on.

2 Does how we treat our disabled and our orphans speak volumes about who we are as a people?

Absolutely! Their treatment reflects in how high a regard we hold life. As a Christian, I believe that God creates each human being, endowing each of us with body and soul, each of us created in God's image. We humans risk God's wrath by God-playing, not only with regard to deciding who lives and who doesn't but also with regard to tender and respectful treatment.

BTW, I've known several retarded people who have an inexplicable understanding of spiritual matters.

10 Do we control our own destinies?

That can be a thorny theological issue. What we do need to keep in mind is that our actions have consequence. As to my "destiny," I leave that to my Lord and His care.

8 This one is a personal gripe but many people seem to have lost a sense of honor. There used to be a personal code of conduct that seems to have fallen by the wayside.

We are engulfed in a culture of selfishness. This culture has become self-perpetuating, and all around us in various ways we see the manifestations thereof. It's "every man for himself" and to hell with the rest.

The Merry Widow said...

8-Yes, honor is one of many virtues that are seen as passe by the "elites" on one hand and "entitlement babies" on the other. The "elites" think they are above all the peasantry and duty, and whatever happened to noblisse oblige? The others think that someone else should do it, specifically those suckers who are bilked of their hard earned money. To both sides the middle class is contemptable, the Roman elitists referred to the middle class, sneeringly as "green grocers"! All because we still believe in G*D, country and all those tiresome virtues that come between someone and their "fun"!
9-Large family gatherings, would be nice, if we were invited. My church family does invite us, and Sunday mornings are more like a family reunion, where everyone is genuinely happy to see you!
10-We choose wheither we want to be godly or reject HIM! Even those who are never taught about HIM, know in their hearts what is right!

tmw

Mr. Ducky said...

Not surprising that The Merry Widow is completely ignorant of Islam. First, Muhammed was an orphan and it is considered a high calling to shelter an orphan in Islam.

Usually the extended family will take in the orphan and actual orphansed children as we would understand the term are very rare.

It is true that adoption does not sever the childs ties to any remaining biological family and rules of inheritance differ but Merry Widow's contention is deceptive.

beakerkin said...

Wrong Ducky, there is no adoption for children in Islam. The best a child or a family can hope for is an act of Kalafa or guardianship.
Her answer is correct and yours is inaccurate.

Warren said...

Nostradumbass striks again!