Friday, November 03, 2006

The Open Questions for those of us who are Religious

I will pose some simple questions to those of us who are relgious. They are primarily aimed at our Christian audience, but our non Christian religious types like MZ or Morgan are also encouraged to respond.


1 As a Christian do you accept the notion of a division between theological and Civil law?

2 I am pro-abortion but I am vehemently against partial birth abortion. I do not want to live in a country that practices infanticide. What are your views on this topic.

3 I am against euthanasia or any attempt by the medical community to determine what life is worth living. My position is grounded in the Nazi killings of handicapped people before moving on to genocide of Jews. Lets hear your views on this subject.

4 What do some of you think of the 1950's Hollywood version of Biblical films. Are there any that stand out as particularly good or bad.

5 The concept of redemption is a Jewish concept that seems to have gained added importance in Christianity. Redemption and Salvation are Jewish concepts but they seem to be at the core of Christianity. Is my understanding of these concepts as essential components of the Christian faith accurate.

This may call for the expertise of Justin and Warren.

74 comments:

DirkStar said...

i think you'll find my opinions on the current state of the church interesting...

Elmer's Brother said...

Beak I hope you don't mind if I chime in.

Redemption - being bought with a price

Christians understand that redemption and salvation are not deserved or earned...that what we deserve is separation from G-d not His mercy.

Personally I love The Ten Commandments.

I am against euthenasia and abortion. You'll find that some Christians are willing to bend when it comes to rape, incest and the health of the mother, but these isssues make up less than 1% of the total abortions performed

Elmer's Brother said...

the original greek word for redemption (strong's concordance) gives this definition for redemption:

a releasing effected by payment of ransom
redemption, deliverance
liberation procured by the payment of a ransom

FLORIAN said...

1. Yes the division is necessary for many reasons
2. Abortion is pure unadulterated MURDER! Regardless of circumstances. Some questions do arise about how in a democracy can we forbid a woman the right to choose the destiny of her future and her unborn child. My conclusion is purely Theological however. Commandment #6 from our Lord God states this is against Him. Since immediate gratification has taken hold of our modern society this seems to be ignored.
3. See my note on #2
4. I wasn't around back then, but I'm sure they were incredibly wholesome and good movies--much better than the garbage that Hollywood spits out today.
5. Jesus once had a conversation at night (since it would've looked bad to the Jewish Elders for one of their own to meet with Jesus) with a member of the Sanhedrene named Nicodemus. Jesus stated to him that the only way for a person to be redeemed is to be "BORN AGAIN". We hear the term "born again Christian" all the time, but do we really know what this means? It doesn't mean anything in the physical sense, but spiritual. Christianity's basic and VERY SIMPLE premise is that all men are sinners, and that Jesus's sacrifice as the Son of God to die on the cross was payment for our sins before our Father. This was God's gift to us. Nobody deserves to go into Heaven but by Jesus dying for us we can enter His eternal kingdom by believing in the one who God sent (Jesus). This gift is for ANYBODY and EVERYBODY!!! All we have to do is choose. Once we decide to believe in Christ Jesus we leave our sinful life behind doing a complete 180 degree turn. By grace thru faith are we saved. That's it! Unlike Islam (and their good deeds include killing "infidels") or Eastern religions we don't have to hope our "good deeds" outweigh our "bad deeds". It's just a matter of faith and repentance. Christianity didn't replace anything in Judaism--it fufilled the prophecies of Isaiah, Proverbs and others. Jews are still God's chosen people, but the great thing about Christianity is that it opened the door to salvation for all. I hope this helps.

BTW I have a new blog up finally. Blogroll my new link if you don't mind. God Bless.

The Merry Widow said...

Beaker- Because of plucky's continued ridicule of "evangelicals", scorning of the Rapture and general lack of clear understanding of The Sermon on the Mount. I have started a systematic look at the entire chapter of Matthew 5. Just put up the first part.
Now, I'll go back on topic;
1-In this unredeemed world, before the return of the Messiah, there is a difference between civil and theological law. There has to be, because there are those who either have not learned of G*D, or those who have rejected HIM. When Messiah comes, HE will rule from Jerusalem, all will know of G*D and HIS Law. Until then, we limp along as best we can, with all of our imperfections. But, good civil law is based on the basics laid down by the 10 Commandments. Thou shalt not murder. Thou shalt not steal, or lie, or bear false witness. It's all based on G*D's requirements.
2-I probably, by an eyelash, believe all abortion is murder, the exceptions are, a rape victim, or victim of incest deserve protection, especially if the girl is young. The other is based on the husband-wife bond, where in extrordinary cases, the bond is more sacred than the child. But since these occassions consist of less than 1% of abortions, all else is selfishness and child sacrifice to baal!
3-The determination of death is the business of G*D. Who knows what blessings may occur when you sacrifice your own comfort to care for another. We as a society are spoiled brats, lacking in natural affections. Not caring for someone you love(or are supposed to love, ala 10 Commandments)is worse than paganism, according to Paul in his letters to Timothy!
4-They were good, to a point, they took a lot of artistic license, they had some merit in interesting people in the rest of the story. But being non-christian productions they had their flaws. But for the most part I would recommend them. At least they are more uplifting to watch than most of the crappe poured out of Hollywood today!
5-Every basic concept of Christianity is firmly rooted in Jewish Law and Temple rituals. Everything I have read in the newer testament is based in the older. Genesis is the first cause of everything I believe and have been taught! In my old church, we alternated new and old testament books, because they are all relevent and applicable today. If the TANAKH was removed, the new testament would fall! That is why real Christians love the Jews, we are benefactors of what they have carried for how many thousands of years? That's a debt we cannot repay except by love and respect!

tmw

beakerkin said...

Dirkstar state your views but I am leery of posters without a blog.

Elmer you have always been known as a man of faith state your views.

Florian I am glad your new blog is up. I will tell you about my misadventure with Northwind on another more appropriate post.

Robert Bayn said...

As a Christian do you accept the notion of a division between theological and Civil law?

Not only do i believe these things must be kept separate, i strongly believe in Separation of Church and State, we know that when Religion and Government are one of the same it corrupts it self. There is a moral code all Christians are called to live by, but i also recognize not all people are Christians, i respect a persons right to live their life as they choose, as long as it is not harming anyone, i believe all people Christian or not have a right to be treated with Dignity and Respect, even if i disagree with what they do.

I am pro-abortion but I am vehemently against partial birth abortion. I do not want to live in a country that practices infanticide. What are your views on this topic.

I have been and continue to be Pro-Life, my pro-life stance not only goes for abortion, but also in the death penalty, and unjustified or unneeded wars. Partial Birth Abortions are sick, anyone who supports such actions should seek mental help immediately. Abortion is another issue that contributes to the continue moral decay, America will one day answer for our support of the murders of innocent babies. I support criminal prosecution for those who have abortions if the laws are ever changed to make Abortion illegal. I support only one exception, when the life of the Mother is endanger which represents less than 1% of all Abortions.

I am against euthanasia or any attempt by the medical community to determine what life is worth living. My position is grounded in the Nazi killings of handicapped people before moving on to genocide of Jews. Lets hear your views on this subject.

First off let me say I'm not for Doctors deciding who can live and who can't, however i do believe it is a persons right to decide if they want to live or die. The Terri Shiavo case was a shame, for two reasons, government over stepped it's bounds, and we allowed someone to starve to death, shameful all around in my opinion. Is suicide a sin? For most Christians it is consider a sin, i toss that in the air, but i can understand why someone in intense pain might want to give up their life, i pray if I'm ever in that situation, someone will just pull the plug, i rather meet my maker than spend years in pain.

beakerkin said...

TMW

Are the Psalms read in Church or referenced in sermons.

FLORIAN said...

Oh...TMW I forgot about rape/incest...abortion in that case I could understand I guess...

FLORIAN said...

Bayn: Not trying to get into a theological tussel with you but think about your suicide stance for a minute. Isn't it arrogant for us to think that we should have the right to end our own lives when we see fit? We didn't create ourselves, we didn't make the rules of the universe. God sees fit when He sees fit. He gives and takes away. It's His choice as to when we meet Him no?

The Merry Widow said...

Often! Sometimes read antiphonally, congregation and pastor or worship leaders. Songs, many songs are based on psalms. So much of Psalms are prophetic, wisdom, the cry of hearts to G*D. They are a treasure trove of Heavenly origin, and all the churches I have attended have used them extensively. I have been in ladies Bible studies that have done studies of all of Psalms.

tmw

nanc said...

1 As a Christian do you accept the notion of a division between theological and Civil law?

"that depends on if you're speaking of the ten commandments or the 613 laws of moses.

a notion is just a notion. the law of G-d is civil. mano y mano. i accept no division between the two if i understand the question correctly.

perhaps you could be more specific before i make a fool out of myself...again.

civil law intones we must be courteous and fairminded not only to others, but as we would be to ourselves."


2 I am pro-abortion but I am vehemently against partial birth abortion. I do not want to live in a country that practices infanticide. What are your views on this topic.

3 I am against euthanasia or any attempt by the medical community to determine what life is worth living. My position is grounded in the Nazi killings of handicapped people before moving on to genocide of Jews. Lets hear your views on this subject.

"i'll combine these two as they seem to be a paradox. i don't know how anybody could condone the killing of an unborn, yet be against euthanasia. however, i am all for the death penalty when needed. go figure."


4 What do some of you think of the 1950's Hollywood version of Biblical films. Are there any that stand out as particularly good or bad.

"the biblical movies (the robe, ten commandments, ben hur) of the fifties were pointed and verbatim according to the Word - movies made today are more nebulous and analogy ridden - we're supposed to look for a meaning. if you're not studying the subject at hand, it will be lost to you. perhaps it's done this way to send us on a search.

none stand out as particularly good or bad. "the passion of the christ" did have a profound affect though - mostly because i felt my own hand driving the spikes into Yeshua's wrist."



5 The concept of redemption is a Jewish concept that seems to have gained added importance in Christianity. Redemption and Salvation are Jewish concepts but they seem to be at the core of Christianity. Is my understanding of these concepts as essential components of the Christian faith accurate.

"redemption didn't GAIN importance in christianity - redemption is all there is to christianity. there is NO THING we may do to gain it. it is a ransom paid for all people for all time.

a weak analogy if i may: i get a speeding ticket; before i go to court somebody i've never met pays the fine - when i get to court, even though they tell me it's been paid - i insist on paying it also! makes no sense and is an insult to the person who paid it once and for all."


thanks beak.

nanc said...

cannot wait to see plucky's answers!

nanc said...

beak - not to answer tmw's question for her, but the psalms are a very big part of christianity and if not referenced should make even an average christian question the church they are attending.

when i was responsible for doing the church bulletin, the psalms were usually what drew me in for the verse of the day.

Elmer's Brother said...

not only are they read and studied Beak but they are made into hymns, songs and choruses

So much of Christian worship music is taken right from the Old and New Testament

beakerkin said...

What about the minor works my people refer to as Megilahs? Does your church reference the books
of Esther, Ruth, Eclisiastes? The other two books are Lamentations and the Song of Songs.

Mr. Beamish the Instablepundit said...

I'll be back later this weekend to answer all these questions and more!

Justin said...

Beak, as usual you ask very deep and meaningful questions that compell one to really question their true belief.

1. As a Christian I do accept the notion of a separation of theological law and Civil law based soely upon one Scripture.
Jesus told the desciples to "Render unto Ceaser that which is his and to render unto "God" those things which are his.
One section in the Bible (Romans 13:1-7) clearly explains God’s view of government. Here is a summary of the major points of this passage:

· We are to submit to government. Not to do so means we are rebelling against God and inviting His judgment. Yes, there is room for dissent, but in general, we are to submit to government authorities
· God is an authority who is above all human governments.
· God has “established” government leaders—they are His servants


2. While the bible does not clearly address abortion I think it is clearly a moral issue and one that should be abolished from socioety. And no I do not buy the milque toast theory that it should be allowed even for rape or incest to me every life is precious to God and should be protected especially the unborn.

3. I am with you on euthanasia. When we a socioety begin to place our own moral value on what live is worth living and what life is not worth living we have usurped the throne of God and Im not quite sure we want the consequences that come with that.

4. Some of the movies of that era I do enjoy. When you consider the limitations they had regarding effects you have to really respect their ability to produce such greats as The Ten Commandments and Ben Hur. If you really look at them they were based on the concept of Nation Building and the morals involved. Something we seem to have forgotten.

5. Redemption and Salvation the two most beautiful words in the Bible. To think that for all our faults and failures there is a God who wishes to redeem us and save us from being separated from him is absolutely mind bogeling.

While I do not believe in a firey hell as preached in so many churches today simply because neither the Old Testament nor Jesus himself ever really taught such a place, he taught that those who did not accept the redemption and salvation would be "cast into the outer darkness and their would be wailing and the gnashing of teeth." In other words to be cut off from the light and love of God. What could be a worse punishment than that to be cut off from the love of God? I think the most beautiful words of salvation and redemption are.

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. (John 3:16-18)

That if you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. (Romans 10:9-10)

Yet to all who received him [Jesus], to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God. (John 1:12)

Sorry if I rambled but questions like these deserve the deepest answers from ones heart not just from ones mind.

The Merry Widow said...

Beaker- They are part and parcel with what we call the older testament. They are historical, poetic, revelatory and just part of the whole!
What Nanc, said about redemption, YES, that is the thundering, soaring, lyrical chorus of the saints. Both those in Heaven and those still on earth. It is the theme of our existance, the song we sing in the dark of tribulation, the war cry as we face satan and his hordes, the descant of triumph for the one going Home and the ever strengthening hope of the ones left by their passing. It is our song, our heartcry and we will sing it at G*D's Feet in Glory! It's our staff and stay here and our glory there! It is our all in all! And the blessing we want to see others take! It causes our feet to dance, our hands to lift and our hearts to fly!
Good morning, G*D bless and Maranatha!

tmw

Always On Watch said...

Just letting everbody here know that I've had a terrible week, packed with PT and medical-massage appointments, work commitments, a cat which has required medicating twice daily, a major car repair, filing a police report for trespassing and the removal of an election sign inside my fenced yard, and something else I've probably left out. **sigh**

In just a few minutes, I'll have to sign off and head for another medical-massage treatment and to give a piano lesson. **sigh again**

All the above blabbing to offer my apologies for not having time to participate in a discussion of the questions posed here. Maybe I can get back to this thread later.

Robert Bayn said...

Florian, God gives us free Choice, right? Whether they be wrong choices or not, God does give us free Choice, their is a consquence for each action, if a person decides they want to die, i believe that is their choice, i would advise anyone not to take their life, but i do not believe i have the right to tell someone they can't, that's between them and their maker.

beakerkin said...

AOW

I understand and this thread will be around.

For the Christians does the Book of Ruth have any special meaning?

beakerkin said...

AOW

I understand and this thread will be around.

For the Christians does the Book of Ruth have any special meaning?

The Merry Widow said...

Beaker- Yes and yes! Ruth gives us gentiles the hope and realization that G*D wants us too! HE loves us and has a place in HIS Purposes!
Caleb, Rahab and Ruth let us know that the sinful, unrighteous outsider has a place to call, Home!

tmw

nanc said...

the story of ruth has great meaning, beak - it's about our kinsman redeemer and paints a perfect picture of how christians are adopted into the family of G-d.

ruth was rejected by the man who was entitled to her and chosen by another and from this union sprang the reign of david!

i love the o.t.

Warren said...

Beak, check you comment notifications. I answered these questions at some legnth last night.

I have to leave for work now

nanc said...

rob? how can we tell someone it's okay to kill themselves and sleep at night when ALL life is what G-d is about. not just the fit and well and goodlooking. we put a millstone around our necks if we cause another to stumble.

to everything there is a season.

nanc said...

beak? i do believe you've hit on the hot topic button here with the subject matter at hand - good job [:!

Justin said...

Rob, it goes back to the question "Am I my brothers Keeper" Well yes you are and you have a duty and responsibility to God and to your brother to do everything in your power to keep them from destroying the life God gave them.

There is no problem so great that suicide is the solution. I speak from experience on this one.

If you know some one who is prone to or going to do this it is your responsibility not just as a human but a christian to do everything in your power to stop it.

There is to much to gain to lose.

Robert Bayn said...

Nanc, please re-read what i said, i would never tell anyone it was ok to kill themselves, i would advise them not to, in the end i think it is their decesion, not mine to make, and that is between them and their God.

Elmer's Brother said...

What about the minor works my people refer to as Megilahs? Does your church reference the books
of Esther, Ruth, Eclisiastes? The other two books are Lamentations and the Song of Songs.

YES to all and what nanc and tmw said about Ruth. The Christian sees a lot of "types" in the Old Testament. e.g. the lamb's bones during Passover not being broken..Christ was called the Lamb of G-d and none of His bones were broken.

beakerkin said...

Warren

I checked and did not see your comments. Blogger has been acting funny.

Do any of the religious readers of this blog still believe in predetermination as opposed to free will?

I want to talk of families and adopted children. I am deeply offended by the Islamic prohibition
of adoption or view that children belong to Allah. All children belong to their families and adopted families are no less valid than biological ones. Maybe this is all in my head, but I am seriously bothered by this.

Justin said...

"God does not predetermine the evil acts of men, nor does God cause them. Rather, these permitted acts mean that God knows beforehand how people will react in each circumstance. He allows people to make autonomous decisions, the choice to do good or evil. God’s foreknowledge of the evil that people perpetrate onto others caused Him to create within humans the ability to overcome that evil. And the good that people are capable of was predetermined by God to be blessed when doing good was chosen. These blessings enable humans to win over evil, while fulfilling God’s total plan."

The Merry Widow said...

Also, Myles Monroe speaks of G*D existing in the Eternal Now. i.e. HE sees the End from the Beginning. And since everything exists inside of HIM, that includes Time. And if it is within HIM, HE can see and know all, even though HE can change it, HE chose to allow us the freedom HE enjoys, called choice!
Sorry if that is a little incoherent, I'm about plowed under by a monstrous pressure change headache. Keeps me humble!

tmw

Elmer's Brother said...

Justin, I believe you are correct. In the N.T. book of James it says

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither does he tempt any man:
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it brings forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death.

There are many families in my church who have adpopted. One family has 13 children. They are treated as any biological.

There is a doctrine in Christianity of adoption also. TMW mentioned it and it refers to Gentiles becoming a part of G-d's family through adoption.

There are some Christians who hold on to predestination, I believe it's a Calvanist teaching. The argument more than not usually doesn't revolve around free will but God's sovereignty. For example in the N.T. book of Romans in Chapter 9 Paul wrote about how G-d hardened Pharoah's heart. Well if God did do that then the question is did Pharoah have free will? Paul then goes on to say that G-d can choose to do what He wants. He is the potter we are the clay. If He created some pots for desctruction then Paul writes who are we to question G-d? This passage has to with G-d's sovereignty not predestination.

Some would read this passage and claim that G-d is not fair. For the Christian though we KNOW that what is fair is if we got what we deserved we would all go to hell.

G-d empowers us through the Holy Spirit to overcome temptation. In the book of Corinthians it says that G-d is faithful in that when we are tempted he provides a way of escape, but left to my own vices I would choose to sin. This is why I NEED G-d.

The Merry Widow said...

G*D's Sovereignty and Man's Freewill stand in direct opposition to each other, they are mutually exclusive AND YET! They are both 100% in effect and they work, only G*D can reconcile this inexplicable paradox into HIS Perfect Plan! My head goes into a fetal position when I try to wrap my poor little finite brain around G*D, it can't happen, AND YET, HE dwells in my heart!
I stand amazed!

tmw

nanc said...

my apology rob. i misconstrued what you said.

Mr. Ducky said...

1. In a pluralistic world the division of religious and civil law is going to be necessary for civil order. There is no encompassing single religious law.

2. It would be worth while, Beak to check the medical literature once in a while. Johns Hopkins and The New England Journal of Medicine, both respected sources have been printing articles describing the conditions under which a "partial birth abortion" is necessary to protect the mother.
I don't believe anyone has the right to make those medical decisions for a woman.

3. Euthanasia is illegal and I expect it will remain illegal. What we will have is evangelicals behaving disgracefully as they did in the Terri Schiavo case.
Case law exists to protect life, allow decisions about exceptional life sustaining care (which Pope John Paul II refused) and decision made when a person has beome merely autonomic functioning.
Given the performance of various thumper groups during the Schiavo case it becomes clear that many will disregard any seperation of religious and civil authority if we don't keep them under control.

4. I assume you mean American ilms. They were extensions of the Cecil B. deMille formula and where certainly entertaining. The formula did delivered there but they certainly weren't very deep.
The Flowers of St. Francis and The Gospel According to Matthew were more thought provoking even on a modest budget.
I don't think the idea of a "religious" moview works all that well. Why is Ben Hur a "religious" film but the works of Robert Bresson or a film like The Burmese Harp considered secular?

5. Redemption is a common subject in most early belief systems.
The Egyptian god Tammuz died on a cross and was resurrected on the third day. Osiris also.
Ithra, Mithra, Prometheus. They were all crucified after an act of scarifice.
The Essene or Holy Fool was a common sacrifice ceromony used by kings to atone for the sins of their people.
The idea is as old as mankind and Christianity started to form when it merged with the Greek concepts of death.

beakerkin said...

The term life of the mother should mean just that. However, the term has been so broadly defined that this includes psychological conditions.

I do not believe that doctors have a sacrosanct right to practice without scrutiny afforded other professions. If they are going to perform infanticide they should have the data to back this up.

As far as euthanasia this will be reality if Marxist socialized medicine ever gets adopted. Keep the Marxists far away from health care.

Always On Watch said...

1 As a Christian do you accept the notion of a division between theological and Civil law?

Much of our civil code of law is based on Judeo-Christian principles. Because God created the world, He also established the laws, not only of science but also of morality.

According to the Declaration of Independence, all men are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men Therefore, civil government exists primarily to protect our rights not to be murdered, stolen from, etc. Most crimes are violations of those rights.

That said, when the state and the church operate as one entity and when the state ends up enforcing certain violations of what should be the church's sphere, we end up with a situation as delineated by Nathaniel Hawthorne in The Scarlet Letter (which my literature class is now reading), in which a woman who has committed adultery is not allowed to participate in the Puritan community.

Civil law is derived from theological law, but the enforcement of the two spheres should not be one and the same.

As a Christian, the reason for my obeying civil law is that I serve my Lord. Ultimately, one day, I shall be answerable to Him. But here on earth I also have to submit myself to the civil authorities, insofar as the civil authorities do not directly force me to violate God's law.

2 I am pro-abortion but I am vehemently against partial birth abortion. I do not want to live in a country that practices infanticide. What are your views on this topic.

Abortion is morally wrong, except in cases of rape or incest or saving the life of the mother. However, I know several women who have had early-term abortions, but none of them would ever have had an abortion past 12 weeks of gestation. Should I sit in judgment of them? No! "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God."

I mention rape as a special case because my sister-in-law was beaten and forcibly raped. The police took her to the hospital; the evidence was collected, and then she had an immediate d&c. Was she pregnant? We'll never know. But the man who raped her was a serial rapist AND a serial killer. He was later executed in Florida.

Abortion as swinging-door birth control is abhorrent and harms a woman both physically and spiritually.

3 I am against euthanasia or any attempt by the medical community to determine what life is worth living. My position is grounded in the Nazi killings of handicapped people before moving on to genocide of Jews. Lets hear your views on this subject.

Euthanasia is wrong. It is a form of God-playing.

And who decides just who should be allowed to live or to die?

Suicide can be a thorny issue. Let me give an example....Years ago, one of our best friends had multiple sclerosis, in the last stages. He actually tried to contact Kevorkian! When that attempt failed, our friend starved himself to death.

Both my husband and I have struggled with the fact that our dear friend committed suicide. Does God understand and forgive that our friend took his own life? I can't begin to know.

4 What do some of you think of the 1950's Hollywood version of Biblical films. Are there any that stand out as particularly good or bad.

I tend to like those films. Maybe it's the pageantry.

Charlton Heston will always be Moses for me. LOL.

5 The concept of redemption is a Jewish concept that seems to have gained added importance in Christianity. Redemption and Salvation are Jewish concepts but they seem to be at the core of Christianity. Is my understanding of these concepts as essential components of the Christian faith accurate.

Salvation is a gift from God. I have done nothing to earn my redemption.

As to God's being fair or not, each of us is His creation; He can do with His creation what He pleases--just as if I don't like something I've written, I can tear it up. Because He loves us, He chose to make a way for us to partake of eternal fellowship with Him.

Now, the one thing that God cannot stand is sin. I used to tell young students, "You know how you hate eating liver? Well, that's sort of the way God feels about sin. It is abomination to Him. But look what He has, in His mercy, done for us! He sent his only Son to die and to erase our sin through a perfect sacrifice."

Christians have no reason to be stuck up or proud.

None of us knows all the details of God's sovereign plans. We are lower than He, less intelligent, less wise. Hard as it is for us to accept that we are not the hub of the universe, we need to. Humility is an important step toward salvation because without that humility, true repentance cannot come.

I don't worry too much about predestination. When I was younger, I used to have fits about it. But I see now that I have no business questioning how God make His determinations. Besides, God's having a plan for me--even if I cannot begin to fathom that plan--is a comfort. "All things work together for good for those who love the Lord, who are called according to His purpose."

For the Christians does the Book of Ruth have any special meaning?

Yes. The covenant of redemption is not exclusive. It was brought to us through the line of David, but the covenant is not only for the line of David.

beakerkin said...

Well I am learning the Book of Ruth
seems to resonate outside Judaism.
I do not remember it appearing in much art or Litterature but it seems to be widely read.

The Merry Widow said...

Well, one question answered. plucky is totally clueless as to what we are talking about, he doesn't know G*D.
Refusing extrordinary measures is not suicide, and psychological reasons usually translate to convenience. plucky, you can speak of non-Biblical religion, but it isn't Christianity or Judaism.
BTW- tammuz was originally babylonian, as in the son of Nimrod who raised the tower against G*D, and since G*D spoke of Christ's death back in Genesis 3, the knowledge was out there for any to pick up. I gave a book by Hislop to a friend called "The Two Babylons", in it the author traces the names of the Mediterranean and Middle Eastern gods and godesses back to Nimrod, Semirameses and Tammuz. And the al'a'alah of antiquity was a statue of Semirameses holding an infant Tammuz, who was the moon god.
Beaker- Totalitarian utopianists will always want to get rid of the nonproductive, who will not contribute to their dreams. Mere humanity is not important enough to save for it's being the "image" of G*D! They have no hearts!

tmw

The Merry Widow said...

Beaker- I have read at least 2 different versions of Ruth(semi-fiction) and some studies. We also relate well to Rahab, the total sinner who is in the lineage of David and eventually of Christ HIMself! What a comfort to know, that G*D can greatly use us sinners!

tmw

The Merry Widow said...

Beaker- Donal is feeling left out in the interview circuit. Could you take it under advisement to do an interview?
Thanks!

tmw

Mr. Ducky said...

Well, merry widow, let me know how Beak can say that redemption is an important Jewish concept at the core of Christianity.

God stayed Abraham's hand. Certainly the crucifiction has no basis in Judaism and that form of redemption might just have its roots elsewhere. No?

Mr. Beamish the Instablepundit said...

1 As a Christian do you accept the notion of a division between theological and Civil law?

Of course there's a division. In a very real sense, Christians are insurgents in a world currently ruled by Satan. But the warfare is spiritual.

2 I am pro-abortion but I am vehemently against partial birth abortion. I do not want to live in a country that practices infanticide. What are your views on this topic.

Beak, you live in a country that practices infanticide. Abortion is murder of a human being. You may not see a "soul" but the 26 chromosomes are there. This is the same argument I make against embryonic stem cell research. The cells would be useless in any currently science fiction medical procedures they're shooting for if they weren't human cells.

3 I am against euthanasia or any attempt by the medical community to determine what life is worth living. My position is grounded in the Nazi killings of handicapped people before moving on to genocide of Jews. Lets hear your views on this subject.

Memories of my debut on Moonbat Central, Beak?

We share this view. I just extend the "who are you to say what life is of any worth" argument to blastocysts.

4 What do some of you think of the 1950's Hollywood version of Biblical films. Are there any that stand out as particularly good or bad.

The Book is always better than the movie. But imagine "The Ten Commandments" done with today's CGI. The Richard Gere "King David" movie is probably one of the worst movies ever made, regardless of genre.

>5 The concept of redemption is a Jewish concept that seems to have gained added importance in Christianity. Redemption and Salvation are Jewish concepts but they seem to be at the core of Christianity. Is my understanding of these concepts as essential components of the Christian faith accurate.

Christianity, true Christianity, was originally a sect of Judaism that was instructed to carry the Word of God to the rest of the world, and the good news of salvation and redemption - in this world ruled by Satan.

Look in every Christian Bible all over the world. There's a Torah inside.

Robert Bayn said...

No problem Nanc, God Bless!

Mr. Beamish the Instablepundit said...

TMW,

God ALWAYS uses broken instruments. I think Jonah got the worst of it. Imagine even a whale knowing God told you to do something and swallowing you up just to spit you out where God told you to go.

That whale had the right attitude.

beakerkin said...

TMW

Donal did have an interview, but if she wishes a second one we can do it here. I am certain Florian would also be glad to interview Donal on his site.

Ducky read the last sentence Mr Beamish wrote. A true Christian enisions Jesus as the embodiment of the fufilment of Jewish prophecies. The concept of redemption is quite prominent in Judaism and the exact word is Tshuva. We have a whole book of lamentations and entire services dedicated to redemption.

Reread Mr Beamish's last two sentences around fifty times. Not that the wisdom of what Mr Beamish wrote will sink in, but there is always hope.

The Merry Widow said...

plucky- When you consider that Jesus is also called The Passover Lamb, so what happens to the lamb on Passover? It is killed, roasted and eaten, BUT NO BONES ARE ALLOWED TO BE BROKEN! Guess what happened to Christ? And when? AND GUESS WHO'S BONES WERE NOT BROKEN! The thieves on the other 2 crosses had their bones broken, but Christ gave up HIS Life willingly! So HE didn't need to have HIS broken. So you were looking at the wrong place, it was Exodus, not Genesis that that particular prophecy was written and the reason why. To save from the Death Angel!
Try again.

tmw

The Merry Widow said...

Also plucky, it is written that whoever hangs upon a tree is cursed. So Christ took the curse of sin that causes us to be spiritually dead.

tmw

Z said...

Hi, guys! Z chimes in twice, and only twice:

Re; church and state separation....I'm getting the feeling lately that a Christian or Jew must not even be informed by his faith; it's getting to where you want to say "because the Bible said.." and that's not accepted somehow. How can we not go to our faith to inform us on some questions?

Re: Rape: As awful as it is to consider that a young woman has to carry a child of rape 9 months, if our reason for not approving abortion is that we must not kill a living thing, why is that baby of rape any less viable than a wanted child? Not to me it isn't. That girl needs all the help she can get, financial and otherwise, and then should either give it to a good family or keep it.......

That's it for me! I'm too much enjoying going back to reading all your erudite and blessed input to waste more of my time OR yours!

Thanks for allowing me to weigh in. z

nanc said...

He was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world! i imagine He was the sin covering adam and eve in the garden - time did not begin until this event. there is still too much to know and never enough time.

plucky ever the idiot - there is NO other faith that attests to the drivel you spout! you should be ashamed thinking there is.

nanc said...

hey zin!

beak? did you find warren's answers? check the trash in your e-mail before you empty it. i've been awaiting his answers all day.

ExPreacherMan said...

Beak,

I can't add a much to the theology that has come before..

But about Biblical Redemption:

Beak, Jesus the Messiah can be YOUR personal redeemer. He died for your sins (anything short of God's perfection), He was buried and rose again on the third day and was seen by over 500 witnesses.

That is the Good News (The Gospel), Romans 1:16 "For I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that BELIEVETH; to the Jew FIRST, and also to the Greek (Gentile)."

To add to that Good News is this in Titus 3:5a "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us....." God's immeasurable Mercy.

The Old Testament was inspired (God breathed) by the Lord Jehovah Himself and foretold His redemption plan and the coming Messiah who would fulfill that. The New Testament is the completion of God's plan of Redemption. Many Jews rejected the Messiah yet many did receive Him.. John 1:11-12
"He came unto His own, and His own received Him not. [12] But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name:"

Beak, all He asks you to do is to believe that Jesus is your all sufficient Savior, who died personally for you.. If you were the only person on earth when He went to the cross, He would still have done it just for you..That IS God's Love!

We all have the opportunity to believe in Jesus and now you have the opportunity to take Him as our Savior or you may reject Him.. It is our choice.. No decision is a decision.

Not by our works of righteousness but ONLY by our faith in Jesus!

I chose to trust Jesus alone as my Savior for my eternity..

Beak, please do the same! God bless you...

ExP (Jack)

The Merry Widow said...

Zinla- You hardly waste time, dear! Glad you decided to show yourself, enjoy your views, don't be a stranger!
Nanc- plucky can't speak intelligently about something he's clueless about. Go study the Older Testament and see the foundations of Christianity, it's all there, plucky!

tmw

Always On Watch said...

Old Testament "types of Christ"--as in symbols foreshadowing and prophesying of the Lamb of God--are numerous. In the edition of the Bible which my grandmother gave me, those verses have stars after them.

Redemption is continually alluded to and mentioned throughout the Old Testament. Redemption is necessary because man is sinful and cannot stand clothed in his own righteousness before the presence of the Father.

The Merry Widow said...

AoW-The Scarlet Thread that traces through every book of the Bible! HE's there, everywhere! HE loves us so much, even in our filthy rags, HE longs to give all HIS White Robe of Righteousness so that we might stand before HIM unashamed by our nakedness!
Good morning, G*D bless and Maranatha!

tmw

Mr. Beamish the Instablepundit said...

Beak,

I truly believe that the Torah (by this I mean not only the 5 books of Moses, but also the Nevi'im and Ketuvim) being translated into every language on Earth and bound together in a Bible (as the "Old Testament" in Christian parlance) is itself a fulfilment of prophecy.

It would take a tremendous effort to remove the influence of Judaism from the world. Anywhere you go, you can find a copy of the Tanakh in the local language.

The Merry Widow said...

Beaker- An aside about redemption.
A former pastor did a series on the 4 redemptions in the older testament, of the slave, the land, the bride and Creation.
At salvation the slave of sin and death is bought and becomes the servent of righteousness. The land is when Israel started to be reborn in 1948, it has not been completed. The bride is the church at the Rapture and Creation when Heaven and Earth are recreated without any sin taint!

tmw

nanc said...

here's an interesting piece i found quite awhile back:

"CHRIST IN EVERY BOOK

Christ is the theme of the entire revelation of God. He is promised in Genesis, revealed in the law, prefigured in its history, praised in its poetry, proclaimed in its prophecy provided in its Gospels, proved in its Acts, preeminient in its Epistles and prevailing in Revelation.

He is seen in every book of the Bible. Take a journey through the halls of the Bible and in every one of them you will see Christ.

IN Genesis He is the Seed of the woman
IN Exodus the Lamb for sinners slain
IN Leviticus our High Priest
IN Numbers The Star of Jacob
IN Deuteronomy The Prophet like unto Moses and the Great Rock
IN Joshua the Captain of the Lord of Hosts
IN Judges the Messenger of Jehovah
IN Ruth our Kinsman Redeemer and Faithful Bridegroom
IN 1 Samuel He is seen as the Great Judge
IN 2 Samuel He is the Princely King
IN 1 Kings as David's choice
IN 2 Kings as the Holiest of all
IN 1 Chronicles as the King by birth
IN 2 Chronicles as King by judgement
IN Ezra He is seen as Lord of Heaven and Earth
IN Nehemiah as the Builder
IN Esther our Mordecai
IN Job our Daysman and our Risen Returning Redeemer
IN Psalms the Son of God and the Good Shepherd
IN Proverbs our Wisdom
IN Ecclesiastes as the One Above the Sun
IN Song of Solomon the Great Church Lover, the One Altogether
Lovely and the Chiefest among Ten Thousand
IN Isaiah He is the Suffering and Glorified Servant
IN Jeremiah the Lord Our Righteousness
IN Lamentations the Man of Sorrows
IN Ezekiel the Glorious God
IN Daniel the Smithing Stone and the Messiah
IN Hosea He is the Risen Son of God
IN Joel the Out Pourer of the Spirit
IN Amos the Eternal Christ
IN Obadiah the Forgiving Christ
IN Jonah the Risen Prophet
IN Micah the Bethlehemite
IN Nahum He is the Bringer of Good Tidings
IN Habakkuk the Lord in His Holy Temple
IN Zephaniah the Merciful Christ
IN Haggai the Desire of All Nations
IN Zechariah the Branch
IN Malachi the Son of Righteousness with Healing in His Wings


IN Matthew He is the King of the Jews
IN Mark the Servant
IN Luke the Perfect Son of Man
IN John the Son of God
IN Acts He is the Ascended Lord
IN Romans the Lord Our Righteousness
IN 1 Corinthians Our Resurrection
IN 2 Corinthians Our Comforter
IN Galatians the End of the Law
IN Ephesians the Head of the Church
IN Philippians the Supplier of Every Need
IN Colossians the Fullness of the Godhead
IN 1 Thessalonians He comes for His Church
IN 2 Thessalonians He comes with His Church
IN 1 Timothy He is the Mediator
IN 2 Timothy the Bestower of Crowns
IN Titus our Great God and Saviour
IN Philemon the Prayer of Crowns
IN Hebrews the Rest of the Faith and Fulfiller of Types
IN James the Lord Drawing Nigh
IN 1 Peter the Vicarious Sufferer
IN 2 Peter the Lord of Glory
IN 1 John the Way
IN 2 John the Truth
IN 3 John the Life
IN Jude He is Our Security
IN Revelation the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, the Lamb of God,
the Bright and Morning Star, the King of Kings and Lord of
Lords."

i cannot and would not take any credit and it may be found here:

http://incolor.inetnebr.com/stuart/every.htm

nanc said...

p.s. i took an extra long beauty nap today (three hours) and am having a difficult time going to sleep...

Farmer John said...

The revelations of the Bible are in every chapter... not just Revelations. Every time I read a chapter, a new one hits me.

...and sometimes I have to wonder... Just who was the 1st person to call it a "beauty nap" and why?...

nanc said...

i don't know. who were they trying to kid?!?

did "sleeping beauty" come before or after the saying?

i love my bible, farmer - who can know it and grasp every item contained therein? it's impossible otherwise it would have been done by now. we are approaching an awakening though. a time where the scales will begin to fall from even the most knowledgeable eyes. very exciting indeed.

Mr. Beamish the Instablepundit said...

At some point you just have to ask...

If God can appear as a burning bush, a pillar of smoke, a fire, a cloud, etc., then why not a man born of a virgin?

The Merry Widow said...

Okay, question. If the smoking furnace represented G*D in the covenant with Abraham, WHO was the flaming torch? Yeah, it's a trick question, I know the answer.

tmw

Farmer John said...

...perhaps virgins are un-pc. Burning Bushes, smoking ruins, fires and nuclear clouds are all too much in fashion nowadays...

Farmer John said...

Beauty often comes to the eyes or the ears. But seldom does it come to both at once????

z said...

nanc! Our sermon one Sunday about a year ago was 'the many names for Christ'...I'm sitting there thinking "redeemer, teacher, rabbi, miracle worker.." and I had to admit to Pastor afterwards that it was a horrible way to open a sermon because I spent all my time trying to think of terms and missed nearly everything else he said! He had to laugh!! z

z said...

nanc! Our sermon one Sunday about a year ago was 'the many names for Christ'...I'm sitting there thinking "redeemer, teacher, rabbi, miracle worker.." and I had to admit to Pastor afterwards that it was a horrible way to open a sermon because I spent all my time trying to think of terms and missed nearly everything else he said! He had to laugh!! z

Robert Bayn said...

I'm currently going through the Book of Revelations, and one thing struck me last night, when the seventh Angel poured out his Vile on Earth, a voice from the Throne (assume that must be Jesus) said "it is done".

The reason this caught my eye was in the Gospel of John, John records Jesus last words as "It is finished".

When Jesus died on the cross he Fulfilled old testament prophecy, and he knew when he died he had died for the many who sinned, he being righteous one had finished his goal, but there is a time when the Carnal minded, those who have crucified Jesus again and again by denying him, will face their death and eternal damnation, and when it happens, it will be "finished", Much like the Prophets foretold of Jesus, John the Revelator foretells us of a Judgement for sin.

nanc said...

zin - i've missed many a sermon because of one or two words the pastor has said that has sent me on a chase through my bible scribbling on my handy rolo-index card file, only to come to an hour later thinking, "when's he going to start this sermon?" as the congregation is tripping over one another to get out and get a good seat at the diner up the road!

i cannot wait until church lasts forever and ever.

beakerkin said...

An error my reading was Habakkuk 3
which I interpreted ad mournful. It may only have been mournful due to my bad renedition. That chapter was set to music any way.

The Merry Widow said...

Former pastor of ours said that if G*D gives you a sidetrail for you during one of his sermons. Go for it! G*D obviously has something for you alone!

tmw