Wednesday, September 02, 2009

Beakerkin on Indians

I want to point out that I do not write on the subject of ethnicity. This is not one of my themes.

I want to point out my respect for Indians. The crimes of the US against Indians are real and to trivialize them would be on a par with Holocaust denial.

That being said they are equal citizens in my big table America. Our history dictates we should honor our treaties made long ago.

I am bothered by a mindset that is displayed on Bad Eagle at times. The mindset is "you do not understand Indians think differently". Of course Black people say "Its a black thing" at times and every other group may make similar claims.

Now every group has unique aspects of their culture and a unique perspective. A woman conveyed she rented a bed for six hours a day. Paid 30 for a job in Arizona and took a series of busses to get there from NYC to work in a resturant. She returned to see her husband and repeated the process and went to Ohio. This would seem odd but in some Chinese communities this is a real story. Some of the workers sleep above the restaurant and work 12 hour days.

While I understand that the vantage point may be different I do not excuse abhorent behavior.
Okay you have another perspective from your community, but that does not grant you any special liscence to denigrate people. It is a wonderful thing for an Indian or anyone else to celebrate their heritage. However, this does not provide a rational for racist attacks on Blacks or Elmer Fudd style attacks on Jews. To give Indians or anyone else a free pass at the most rabid descriptions of bigotry directed against their fellow Americans is wrong.

I also tend to be dismissive of those who think that cultural differences remove certain ethnicities from the human condition. Most of us worry about our loves, family, careers and future. The exception to this are insane Utopians who themselves are a more mental illness than
coherent. If you are still talking about Trotsky or advocating a world wide theology you have removed yourself from common humanity.

I am an American. Indians are a special part of my big tables of equals based on their unique history. This does not entitle them to denigrate other members of the table.


The Pagan Temple said...

Beak, my only disagreement with what you say here is this bit about how bad the Indians were treated.

Yes, they were treated bad AFTER THE FACT. If that is what you are saying, I have no problem with that either. The reservation system was and is abominable.

If you are talking about how they were treated before reservation days, however, I have to take serious exception to that.

An open-minded study of the French and Indian Wars and the War of 1812 will inform you they brought almost all of their problems down on their own heads due to their actions in those conflicts. Everything that came afterward originated mainly from those two wars.

During the Indian Wars of the late eighteen hundreds, there were still a few old veterans of the last conflict that were still alive, and more importantly, there were numerous others who heard first hand accounts of that war. That was where the problem stemmed from.

Any serious discussion with me and Indians involving the "great wrongs" that was perpetrated on them by whites has to start out with an acknowledgment of that fact. Otherwise, there simply is no discussion.

Ducky's here said...

Beak !! Have you been in the sandbox over at Gay Eagle again?

CM said...


At the big table, now I don know which spoon to use!

You know when someone keeps knocking you down, how can you have respect for them? How can you wish them well in their endeavors when it means "using" your people again, and again?

One thing that I am is a Comanche first. I want the best for the Comanche people living away from Comanche Land I support Nick 100%, if he has to have that ******e tagging along, I guess I can live with it.(after all, he is cute as a bugs ear!)

I wish Nick T. well in his endeavors with his I.T. project, I hope he prevails and is allowed to film the General Council for ALL Comanche who live away from Comanche Land.

The one thing I can't understand is why does he need yeagley, when yeagley can't control his own Blog and admits he knows nothing about how to do certain things!

Why does he need him when yeagly doesn't "need" any real Indians on HIS blog, he questions their identity, yet he wants to tell the world HIS racists view of Indians! His academic background doesn't include being involved with the Indian. I like this comment made from an Indian Author who has himself spend over eight years in Academia and is a Veteran: "I WILL TAKE EXPERIENCE ANY DAY OVER ACADEMIA WHEN WRITINGS OF A PEOPLE'S DEEPEST BELIEFS AND THEIR RESULTANT CULTURE." This man's book is all about the love for his Indian people, the truth!

That goes for baggy ann also, she is a breed, lives away from her reservation, always have. I give her credit for learning now, as I still am learning, but she attacks with a vengence to any and every one, she doesn't want to discuss and learn from others. Its their way(yeagley & bag)or the highway, they do not want to learn from other Indians! Everything I bring up about Her is what I have read on the Internet, it still there, yet she says I lie! She blames me for everything!!!!

This project will be funded(if granted) by the Casinos, yes yeagley will gladly accept the funding, though he speaks against the Economics of the Nation.

I will back Nick because I know Nick has a family that will help him when yeagley fails to come thru on his end(whatever that is!!!!) Now that is being Comanche, working for you own for your People....udah Nick!


Cateran said...

Beakster said…
I am bothered by a mindset that is displayed on Bad Eagle at times. The mindset is "you do not understand Indians think differently". Of course Black people say "Its a black thing" at times and every other group may make similar claims.

Come on Beak, at least be honest with yourself, what do you mean by “at times”? What you’re describing here is standard Yeagley – if you can’t intellectually respond to comments, then quickly dismiss the commenter due to racial or political grounds.

Tell me that you’ve never noticed anyone that disagrees with Yeagley’s half-baked politics isn’t immediately dismissed as a Liberal? Or tell me you haven’t noticed that every time an Indian shows up who has Yeagley’s measure and soundly addresses his points that Yeagley quickly dismisses that person as a (gasp) black Liberal (which one must presume Yeagley believes to be the lowest form of creature in God’s Creation). Even lower than white Liberals, no doubt.

In this case, he’s simply saying the Kidist isn’t qualified to make sound comments on either him, or “Indians”, because he’s unable to respond to her on the same level that she’s addressing him.

That’s his SOP and if you were a bit more honest with yourself you’d have noticed it years ago.

But there is humour in there for those that are willing to see it. Here we have an Ethiopian “Canadian” whom I doubt knows a single Indian except for a guy that’s never spent a day on the Rez. And here they are both discussing what it means to be Indian. And then he’s being condescending to her because he’s the expert on all things Indian.

And roond and roond the plugged toilet goes.

beakerkin said...


You are 100% correct.

CM said...


I kinda got off the main theme.

The Native American like I've said before, for the most part are just as you and others here.
I like to think of us as week end Warriors, the women too! I live in awe, as to how most can work 8-5 all week and PowWow and even Camp the 2 day week end, but thats being Indian, those are Mystic Warriors! Comanche People are not reservation Indians, but we make the most of re-capturing our past by being REAL INDIANS ON THE WEEKENDS.

I have a friend who's 89 year old Father remembered seeing Quannah Parker as a young boy. His Grandfather rode horses with him and never thought he was anything special, no one did in those days, he was made "Chief" and special after he died, I guess. This man wrote a book also, its called "First to Fight" by Henry Mihesuah.

I remember being afraid as a child when we passed Jason Betzinez, who was a very old man who barely could see above his steeing wheel, he was too old to drive, but he drove really slow all over the road too! He wrote a book about "Fighting with Geronimo". He had an old livery stable a mile north of where I live.

I found on line: "CAMP COMANCHE" a large Comanche village by First Dragoons under Col. Henry Dodge, July 16,1834, enroute from Ft. Gibson to plains tribes, 75 Dragoons and George Catlin noted artist, were too ill to travel farther with expedition. Camp evacuated July 28, upon Dodge's return from peace councils with the Plains Indians.

Location of markers: On u.s. Highway 62, near boundary line of Caddo and Comanche counties.

George Catlin was ill in my backyard, physicaly in my back yard! He fell ill and stayed with the Comanches for about twelve days.

A number of Catlins's most famous sketches of buffaloes and Comanche were no doubt drawn during the twelve days he was encamped in the vicinity of this marker, it goes on to say the exact location of the camp will never be known with certainty, but thats where I now live. If indeed the Comanche had over two hundred lodges, they would have been all around me. I feel honored. I live on Sacred Grounds, have always felt that way. I want to live no where else, I never understood why non-Indians upgrade and are always moving.

George Catlin, Artist, who lived for eight years among Native American tribes, said in 1841:"Nowhere, to my knowledge, have they stolen a six-pense worth of my property, though in their countries there are no laws to punish for theft. I have visited fourty-eight different tribes, and I feel authorized to say the the Norht American Indian in his native state is honest, faithful, brave...and an honorable and religious being." Now that is what I call Honoring the Native American from someone who knew and lived with them.

This proves to me that even in the 1800's experience over academia when writing of a People is to be taken seriously more so than reading about them from a book. Unless the author has close relatives that can be taken seriously, like Mihesuah, whom we all honor and know and associate with and respect his knowledge.


Alligator said...

Beak you might recall that despite my comic side coming through, many times I tried to discuss Indian history, culture and contemporary issues in a serious manner on BE.
I had high hopes of getting Indian viewpoints on topics that were of interest to me. Too often I was greeted with the sound of chirping crickets.
Basically, Doc Yeagley by his own admission was not raised among his people (I discussed that earlier here)
I seriously think the Doctor is more interested in certain other cultures, Iranian/Persian being one of them.
Most Indians who were raised on the rez or Indian community wouldn't stick around the site long, or DY would dismiss them as black liberals and run them off.
So in the end it was pointless to try and deal with many Indian issues on BE. The race stuff was frosting on the cake.
I've been around Indians much of life and worked with them as a historian too.
I am still learning that much of what I thought I knew about their cultures, spirituality and histories was often not correct. But I've learned enough now to recognize when Indian viewpoints are being misinterpreted or mischaracterized through a Euro-centric lens.
It is indeed a challenge to really get into and understand a culture you were not raised in. That takes spending a lot of time with the "elders" and members of the community, being invited to their social and spiritual functions and listening and observing carefully without asking a lot of questions or putting forth a bunch of opinions. R-E-S-P-E-C-T (thank you Aretha) and humility are always a valuable commodities when learning about another culture. We often don't know what we think we know.

The_Editrix said...

"I've been around Indians much of life and worked with them as a historian too."

'gator, the deliberate rejection of the things you might have contributed to Violent Hummingbird shows like nothing else from where that man is coming. He is simply not interested in Indians, only in their marketing value for his sorry efforts as a "pundit". By the way, it is quite amusing that he, like every good little leftist, rides the minority train. He must have realized at an early stage that your knowledge might have exposed him inadvertently as the fraud he is and he thus shut you up. However, he is doing that himself now, much better than anybody else ever could.

The biggest cheek is that he is chiding his former posters for putting up their own websites or blogs. By his moron's logic, nobody who ever contributed to ViHumm should have an own website EVER. Is there ONE regular at the Beak's blog he took away from ViHumm? At mine? If anything, my childish "Waffling Warrior" posts gave him hits he clearly didn't deserve. You started to comment at my blog during the last couple of months, long after you left ViHumm and the only other one was that inebriated piece of trash, Mark Winters. (Where is he, by the way?) Does Beak post on Indian matters? Do I? Mac saved his sorry arse long after he had set up TBIS and it was our Great White Pontificator who alienated him and who is now pissing and moaning that he has lost control over his own website. I see from the latest blog entry at ViHumm that SheDesigns has her own blog as well now. I doubt that she posts much on Indian matters, save that one reckoning with The Great White Pontificator, or that she steals much readership from ViHumm.

It amuses me no end that he is blaming his failure on everybody and his pet ferret, but not himself, like every good little leftist does.

Alligator said...

First, a big hello. You always had nice comments about the stuff I wrote about Indians on Violent Hunningbird. You were one of the few people that took notice and seemed to appreciate what I was trying to do there.

Of course not all Indians live on a reservation. But even off the rez, there are definite communities, Comanche, Otoe-Missouria, Ioway, Kiowa Tonkawa, Shawnee, Miami it goes on and on. Even in the urban areas such as Kansas City, Indians who have migrated there to work tend to form a community even if they are all from different tribes. They have a sense of being culturally distinct from the larger European-based culture. Of course, no one lives like they did 200 or 300 years ago. But the cultural threads that go back that far and farther are still very much alive in Indian communities of all tribes. Much of the old ways and traditions have been compromised or are gone, but I still am frequently surprised to discover just what has survived and is being carried on.

That's really neat about your home place being the site of Catlin's visit. His works contributed a lot to drawing my attention to Indians at an an early age (and having a cousin who was half-blood) A lot of people question Catlin's motives today, and maybe they weren't always pure, but he made a lot of statements in favor of Indians that just were not popular in the 1830s and 40s. And if he did not do what we he did, we would have no visual record of many tribes, such as the Comanche, before the age of photography. He captured the flowering plains tribes at their pinnacle, before they felt the full brunt of American civilization.

I have written a lot about Indians even though i am white. But I always try to do so in a respectful manner and let the reader know that basically, everything written and believed about Indians for the last 200+ years has been woefully inadequate, often wrong and sold them short as civilizations. For instance, look at the idea that the Comanche had no religion. That opinion was formed by Americans in the 1830s and carried through the writings of many ethnologists and historians right into the 20th century. Certainly Comanche belief systems and ceremonial rituals may not have been as complex as those of the the Pawnee or Osage. But then, nomadic people generally didn't develop as complex a system as the sedentary societies. But the Comanches had spiritual beliefs, religious purpose and ceremonial structure nonetheless. These guided one in day to day affairs and life decisions, hunting, trade, warfare, peace, etc. Because the Americans and Spaniards didn't understand it and Comanches were very private about their spiritual knowledge, it was written "they are barbarians without any belief system." Unfortunately we see that attitude being carried forth today, even by certain enrolled Comanche. I don't know the Comanche as well as I do some other nations, but I know them well enough to say, "buffalo chips" to the notion they had no societal or spiritual structure.

CM said...

Hello Alligator,

Just wanted to say a quick hello. Thank your for your response, so much more than I ever got from yeagley.

Have to get my flu shot today, and see when the Grandkids' will be able to get theirs!

Nice to have an Indian Hospital, as inadequate as it is at times, its there for us. More later....


Motoy said...

Osiyo Comanche Moon, you hot tamali Comanche woman! Lol, yeah you are a looker for sure,lol. Now if you recall you and I got along fairly well at Bad Eagle back months ago. Even commented on a couple topics at the same time before we both moved on. Sooo why not just come back over to Badeagle and speak your mind instead of being skiddish of Betty? Hash it out and speak your mind like a brave Comanche woman? Then when what you have to say makes sense and has some good assertions to it, then ole Motoy the Cherokee will surely take up for you if you start getting to much dung heaped on you! You certainly cannot say that I kiss anyone's butt over there,lol, not even beak's, cause I have only agreed with what he has had to say on only three or four ocasins all this time.

CM said...


Taking a break and decided to read. No date on your comment so I do not know when you posted.

Are'nt you the sweet one, I am NOT a hot tamali. You do know that baggy ann reads here. Soon as she reads what you say, she will jump to attention and attack me for the thousanth time!

Who are you kidding, You would never go against her, you haven't thus far....weeny. She would go after your loved ones and even your dog. She will never leave me alone, you have to be kidding. I'm not afraid of her, she just get too nasty and vulgar. I'm not that kind, after all I am not ashamed to let my older sister read what I had to say. If spoke as she does, I'd be ashamed to admit my 12 year old Grandaughter reads it, she says that herself, they all get a big laugh out of her posts, and her policeman son(who got fired) ugly and vulgar as most of her posts are, can you imagine!

Maybe after she is dead and cold, me and him can talk...I mean really talk Indian....and he can learn something!

Until that time Motoy, you, Bear, yeagley and your mascot bagg, all Breeds, can carry the Indian thing. None of you have stood up against her at any time. Beakerkin is the only one who did and still does and is still there! Every person in the past gave up, Baby lost a lot of good people for the sake of keeping her uglyness....strange!