My parents are going of on a Agean cruise for two weeks. They always seem to find these wacky travel deals. However, they are not complainers and enjoy the experience.
The other part of this story is that US students also face subsidized competition. Education in China, India and many other countries is heavily subsidized. Students do not end up with mountains of debt like their US counter parts. This is called investment in human capital.
We should consider revamping the state Colleges along the Indian model. Lets the white bread old money go to the Ivy schools and NYU. Lets create state colleges just like those in India. Hard tests to get into and zero credit for being a band member or working in a homeless shelter. There would be no social science courses above the intro level. Those few courses would be hired by the President of the college. There would be zero acceptance of political activism in the classroom, not on our dime. Marxist should also be disqualified for these positions as being not in tune with the goal of creating dedicated hard workers.
The English department should have classes geared towards writing business memos and reports. Students need to learn how to draft memos, reports and make presentations. Students do not need to read Ibsen or I Rigoberta in the real world.
Business students need extra accounting and computer classes and engineers need extra math and lab work. Even the art department should focus on CAD and graphic art
and computer aided publishing. The journalism students would be required to take 32 credits in business. The marxist/ political activist ban could produce genuine Journalists instead of hacks.
We must meet the challenge of India if we are to remain relevant. Do not blame India and Indians who are fine wonderful people. The blame rest solely on the far left peversion of our education system. The real world is competitive and brutal and students need to be prepared. Self esteem and social Justice do not pay bills and are not relevant in the work force. We should be creating skilled workers but the far left seems intent on creating revolutionaries. If the far left wants to create revolutionaries it should do so on its own dime. There should be no student loans granted for these out of control worthless social science departments.
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32 comments:
Beaker- I like, I like!
tmw
Of course, academia would fight such a reform every step of the way. Many college profs can do nothing except teach useless courses.
You know, I'd have even more hours in my major if I hadn't been required to take so many "rounding out" courses. Tennis and golf are nice, but taking those two courses resulted in my foregoing two classes in my major.
BTW, composition is the area in which high-school students most often fail on standardized tests. Many teachers themselves can write worth a damn.
Beak:
Oh how I wish, that your scenario for education in this country could be implemented.
Being in the International Trade I find it very frustrating when I review applications of people who want to work for our company.
Sadly, I find most applicants who are American and have attended U.S. Schools are sorely lacking in the basic skills that their Indian and Asian counter parts have.
6 out of 10 of the American applicants lack even the basic skills of spelling or math, which are essential to our business.
8 out of those 10 applicants are unable to write the simplest business proposal that is coherent.
When asked to tell me what assests they think they can bring to our company I am met with a blank stare that indicates they haven't the slightest clue as to the question I am asking. They are unable to tell me what their goals would be in our company or even in their personal life.
Our entire educational system needs to be revamped and studies need to be directed to specific needs in the business community.
Students should be required to declare their major at the outset and all courses they take should be in that area. Under water basket weaving, cultural diversity studies, and philosophical courses are not what I or my counterparts are looking for.
We are looking for people who have excellent(not just good) math, spelling and grammatical skills. Our people are competing on a global scale to get the business and you only get one shot with a business proposal.
I'm sure AOW will appreciate this sentence that was submitted in a hypothetical proposal that we ask all applicants to write.
Applicant wrote:
"in submission Sur we are convedent that if you look at (company name) you will found we can fill up all your needs".
I do call these applicants in and explain point by point with them just why they have been rejected. I have to wonder how long it will be before some gov. agency shows up and tells me it is illegal for me to reject a applicant because they cannot spell, do math or write even a simple business proposal. After all they can weave baskets in 10 feet of water :)
6 out of 10 of the American applicants lack even the basic skills of spelling or math, which are essential to our business.
8 out of those 10 applicants are unable to write the simplest business proposal that is coherent. ---- Justin
Justin, this seems to me like the normal odds for hiring. You don't get a 100% fit, nor even probably 50.
Out of 1,000 applicants, you hire ---- ONE.
Of which maybe 20 were finally eligible. And I'm being as generous as you.
Camera:
My figures point out not normal odds because as I stated in my post this is put up against their foriegn born counter parts.
I just find it shameful that American Students are so ill prepared to enter not only the Internation Trade field but the mainstream American field as well.
The foriegn born applicants are much better prepared in the use of english and math over the American Educated student.
There is no excuse for a college graduate to write the sentence that I cited. Unfortunately Camera the total lack of being able to write a coherent proposal with proper grammar and spelling is the norm for many American Educated applicants we get these days.
It reflects just how badly our Educational system is failing its students and those that pay for their education.
India and most Asian countries know that if they are to succeed then their students must be proficient in all these skills and they insure they are trained to meet those skills.
Justin
you promised that you wouldn't post my gramatical barbarisms. I might mispell here and there but that was not me.
Beak :)
you know what they say about the "guilty dog barking first" I mentioned no names LOL.
I do use spellcheck at work. However my point does come across quite well. In fact I sometimes get comments from people in the UK who swear they do not read this blog.
oh they dont read sounds like someone from europe
Justin,
Applicant wrote:
"in submission Sur we are convedent that if you look at (company name) you will found we can fill up all your needs".
"Convedent"? Word's spell check gives "confident" and "confidant" as suggestions, but that applicant would certainly not know the difference between those two suggestions.
"Fill up all your needs"? What a screaming error of idiom! Please tell me that this applicant was ESL!
I won't tell you what I do to any of my students who write such a pathetic sentence. ;)
But, honestly, the vast majority of my homeschool students don't submit such nonsense, not even the few students who have learning differences. Parents know that taking one of my courses requires a bit of pre-requisite work.
Students should be required to declare their major at the outset and all courses they take should be in that area.
Yes! Give them one semester at the max to make the declaration. If they need to "find themselves," let them take a semester or two off from college and work a job.
Anon
167 the gay Commie Dane in the UK
does spew his antisemitic venom here every few months.
He starts off with Beakernazi and proceeds to call me a facist and liar abot six times. His incoherent blather is comedic and keeps people laughing for days.
He is probably playing naked twister or buildng a Lego Concentration Camp. If you want to visit his blog there is a link at John Brown's comedy blog. Click the link to GASH but do not make long comments as he delettes everything.
Always:
I must admit I was caught between rage and falling out of my chair laughing when I read this applicants proposal.
To be honest I require that their proposals are hand written and not on the computer.
The reason for this is to qualify their spelling and grammatical skills with out the aid of spell check. I guess it makes me a barbarian since I still expect some one to be able to write with a ball point pen.
It makes me ill when I see
what our primary and secondary educational institutions are turning out that, coupled with the fact that a foriegn applicant has a better grasp of the english language ie: spelling, grammar and sentence structure.
While the world is changing dramatically it is still a well known fact that english is still the language in business world wide.
I'm in a bit of a hurry, so I'll try to say it quick, and argue later. :)
Justin, probably .01% of Indians apply to your school. That is the extreme elite, who have probably done all they can (SAT, GRE etc... mockups) to try to enter America schools.
Of the 8/10 Americans (Canadian, I would also say), you deem 2 acceptable, and probably one exceptionally so.
So, who would you rather choose, the American who might ask you for better pay, better benefits, better work conditions, as his ancestors have fought for.
Or the Indian who will take anything, and in the long run might (I will say will be) deficient in the American (Canadian) systems and will require special training, usually by the American you might be firing to replace him.
I'm not saying don't improve the school system. I'm just saying that
1. I don't think it is that broke
2. Not every college student will come out with a real degree - then she or he can just go into sales
3. I still am not convinced that these foreign college programs are any better than American ones, since they probably took the teaching material right out of American schools...
I am off to NYC so comments will not be posted until late tonight.
It is very good to see Justin and Kidst on the Blog.
Justin what sort of siege music are we going to blast at John Bwown's compound. We tried Barry Manilow and Abba. I am certain if we find annoying music we can free Beakerambo.
Camera you said:
"So, who would you rather choose, the American who might ask you for better pay, better benefits, better work conditions, as his ancestors have fought for."
I would explain to you that:
I do not hire based on what the
applicant is or is not asking in the way of wages, benefits, work conditions. Each postion in our firm has published wages benifits and working conditions which we pay a above wage and benefit package for each employee. I hire on the applicants qualifications and abilities.
You said:
"require special training, usually by the American you might be firing to replace him."
That may happen in the High Tech industries but, in my industry I have never fired anyone to replace them with cheaper labor. That is the most defeating thing a company could do to itself. I know its a nice sounding myth that all American companies are hiring cheap labor but it is not the truth it is just what I said a myth.
You said:
"I still am not convinced that these foreign college programs are any better than American ones, since they probably took the teaching material right out of American schools..."
You may be right about the program itself not being different however, I think if you research it you will find that the delivery of the program and the expectations placed on the student are what makes the difference. The foriegn student has to work harder in order to achieve and move ahead.
I hire the person who is going to be best able to contribute to the company and the other employees be they American, Asian, Mexican,or Black and, Im not sure that I haven't hired a few Martians (but that is a different story).
I know what I see coming out of our schools and I know that something has to be done to improve our peoples chances in a global world. I know no one likes to think of jobs being governed in global terms but it is a reality.
Beak, Beak, (shakes head) don't you know JB cannot survive John Phillip Sousa's Military Marches.
Add to that the four military branches theme songs.
You know he can't stand anything that even half way resembles Patriotism.
It would be like dragging a vampire kicking and screaming into the sun light.
Camera Lucida:
You are missing the earlier point that the Indians are more capable in the basics of math, sciences, and communication at the same education level.
This has nothing to do with whether they are here in the US applying for a job or not.
Many of the best Indians do NOT come to the US because they are top acheivers and have their own businesses or are recruited for jobs worldwide. The Indians that come to the US are more likely to be what we would consider a Middle Class.
Bottom line is that in most other countries to get into advanced educational classes requires DEDICATION AND HARD WORK THAT IS NOT REQUIRED IN THE US as it used to be.
Beakerkin:
I would suggest Onward Christian Soldiers and other classic Christian music.
Can't say I am familiar with Jewish religious music so will ask others opinions on whether to include it.
Some of the old Gothic dirges might make a nice change in pace also.
(snicker)
Education should be hands on. Under the Beamish plan to merge the Dept. of Education with the Dept. of Defense, children will not only learn applied math, they'll get to fire their mortars at targets to test to see if their calculations are correct.
Justin,
I require that their proposals are hand written and not on the computer.
I favor that approach. One has to discern what the applicants' basic skills are.
a foriegn applicant has a better grasp of the english language ie: spelling, grammar and sentence structure
Many public schools do not have an organized language-arts program. Some focus on grammar does occur, but mainly because of the NCLB Act.
When I first started teaching in 1972, grammar instruction had fallen by the wayside.
In Australia the job outsourcing is in reverse gear.
In fact a lot of these 'diverted calls centres' were not implemented because of any particular skills the employees might've had but as Lucida pointed out because they were dirt cheap.
Justin what sort of siege music are we going to blast at John Bwown's compound.
I suggest Peter, Paul and Mary.
Beak said:
"what sort of siege music are we going to blast at John Bwown's compound."
God Bless the USA by Lee Greenwood.
;^)
There are some public schools I have heard about that are pushing or have been pushing a "school to work" program. I am a big fan of vocational training vice a strict college education. 60% of all jobs require some type of vocational training, 20% require a college degree, and 20% are unskilled labor.
If high school students learned a trade while attending high school they could then put themselves through college should that be the route they wish to take. If college is not required they are already in the work force DOING. Employers seem to be fond of this as well. This is a popular form of apprenticeship here in Arizona. I understand that Germany has some form of this as well.
We have alot of great ideas for our musical psyops on the John Bwown fortress of evil.
In other news the plot by Mummia to impersonate Ed Bradley was thwarted by the Beamish Covert Action squad. Apparently, Ed Bradley is taller then 4'6''.
Justin, first of all you said your employment area is ----- International Trade! So, your "global" perspective doesn’t really surprise me. You could become defunct, if you don’t follow all those "global" mandates!
The foreign student has to work harder in order to achieve and move ahead.
There are a lot of things implicit in your answer. What I get from it is that you like the subordinate, hard-working foreigner (I call it slave mentality, since they have so much at stake, they better behave themselves, namely: green card, work permits, families to sponsor).
Now, in a really growing workplace, would you rather the traditional American and Canadian mindset which doesn’t have a "yes, massah/sahib", mentality, and thus allows for creativity, innovating and improvement to occur? Or a company which is basically catering to self-serving subordinates, who are the "yes-men" which Americans and Canadians never really are, or were.
Anonymous, please read above comment to Justin.
Also, what ever happened with on-the-job training for the petty things like memo-writing?
You said: [Indians are] more capable in the basics of math, sciences, and communication?
This is absurd. An Indian can speak and communicate in the American society than an American?
And does an American computer programmer (I’m not talking about cashiers here) have worse math and science than an Indian HB visa holder? Again, please see all my comments above.
You said “[Indians are] recruited for jobs worldwide”
Little tell-tale phrase here… again, please read comment above.
Kidst
I have spent days comparing the degrees. I general we are never allowed to challenge a US degree.
Thus if a non citizen comes in with a bogus degree we can ask how does this degree relate to the job.
Among the many cases we do get a chance to compare universities. I have yet to see an Indian with 20 PE credits. In fact other then an intro Social Science course they take zero fluff classes.
The problem is the entire notion of the 64 credit liberal arts base is outdated. This has been done largely to protect jobs of far left types.
Why does the average student need intermediate anthropology, sociology and victims studies departments. Let one or two schools produce the far left hack professors.
The universities should reshape the base to include Micro and Macro Economics, Accounting, Finance, Marketing and Management.
These are real classes that serve a purpose in the market place. Reading I Rigoberta or the fertility rituals of Central American Indians has zero utility in real jobs.
If you sat even comparing Indian engineering students in US universities and those in India one notices that there are no fluff classes. There are certainly employers who do take advantage of cheaper high quality labor. Yet I wouldn't want to take a chance on an American who has been spoon fed
Chomsky and self esteem. Bring on the competitive well mannered Indian or Chinese.
Employers invest alot of money in h1b cases. The petition is 2190 and legal costs and time could raise the real cost of a petition over 4000. These costs idicate there is far more to this story.
camera: said
"There are a lot of things implicit in your answer. What I get from it is that you like the subordinate, hard-working foreigner (I call it slave mentality, since they have so much at stake, they better behave themselves, namely: green card, work permits, families to sponsor)."
Camera it is so nice to see that you are such a intuitive individual that you know all about an individual and how they run a company.
You seem to have a really serious racially/bigoted problem with those born outside the U.S. and, I would just like to know what you consider a traditional American? Are they White, Black, American Indian? I would like to know just for the record, do you not consider U.S. Citizen's Americans?
While yes I have a global view since I am in International Trade I do not as you say follow any global mandate in hiring. I love people who always talk about mandates and agendas that they can not define let alone prove exist.
It just might interest you the lowest paid individual person in our company is a packer in the warehouse. They earn $19.00 per hour plus benefits (health insurance,401K and profit sharing)
The lowest paid office worker is the receptionist who earns $37,500 per anum plus benefits (health insurance, 401K and profit sharing.
We hire qualified individuals who can do the work and contribute to the company. Employees are allowed to think for themselves and are well rewarded when they offer ideas that prove benifical in the company.
It might also interest you to know that all of our employees are U.S. citizens (but I forget you dont consider those traditional Americans or Canadians) Question are Canadians working in the American work force Americans or foriegners taking American Jobs?
Camera we live and work in a global socioety so you might as well accept it since it is not going to change in yours or my lifetime our educational system is failing in training our American students to work in that socioety.
It is implicit in your answer that you think just because you were born here you have a G*D given right to any job you want whether you are qualified properly educated for the position or not.
Beak,
I understand fully what you're saying.
But, my point is that first class engineers, doctors and computer scientists do come from America in abundance. If the problem is the liberal arts courses, then let the American and Canadian students vote, literally, to abolish them.
Just because one has useless liberal arts courses doesn't make one a useless doctor or engineer. Maybe even better, because one had to battle through all these landmines to get the qualification. A little like real life!
Reading foreign degrees and seeing the reality of those degree holders are two different issues.
What ideas do you think the Indian and Chinese come here with?
Every second-generation Indian I see here spends all their time thinking and dreaming about India.
Chinese second, third etc... generation offspring ended up making the Canadian government pay reparations for past (totally invalid) grievances.
The more you let these kinds of immigrants in, in such high numbers, the more the wonderful "American and Canadian Way" will disappear.
Such people, firstly, do not generally out-qualify Americans.
And secondly, they come here and change the whole Canadian and American landscape to suit their own needs, backgrounds and politics (I think almost all are liberal, and their offspring leftists).
So, the first premise (better qualified) is wrong.
The second (they will integrate) is also turning out to be wrong.
Soon, all the greatness of America will be left to squabbles over who gets the left-over multi-culti pie.
Rather than baking a whole new one, as has been the historical greatness of America.
Camera Lucida:
I have been working in the civilian IT field since 1979.
My most recent experience was with Charles Schwab with software development teams.
I will stick with ALL my claims as they pertain to job seekers in the last 10 years.
Beak also said:
Employers invest alot of money in h1b cases.
Well, I'm quite sure that the whole endeavor is cost-effective.
I.e.: They are getting their money's worth.
One other issue I might add.
Hiring to the percentages or affirmative action.
This is not a big issue unless you are working for a Corporation or contracting with the gubmint, or, just have a bunch of LEFTIES in the company or the company is being BLACKMAILED by activists.
Hiring people who DO NOT MEET THE QUALIFICATIONS destroys efficiency in companies. If a company brings in folk from outside the country, especially females, it fills some of those slots, or, allows those slots to not be counted. Lemme tell ya, ya get a LOT BETTER QUALITY hirin furriners than the local underrepresented you might have to hire to fill the slots otherwise.
And yes, not only is this obvious in government jobs, it is as bad in most Corporations and large companies!!!!!
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