Monday, April 03, 2006

Bat Yeor's Decline of Eastern Christianity under Islam

I want to start off with the absudity of our demented official troll Ducky. Ducky loves to talk about apathied, colonialism and slavery in the Western context. We have a wide range of readership and it is same to say we have no appologists for those evils. Nobody is in favor of Jim Crow or is mittigating slavery or the treatment of Native Americans. These are parts of our history that we have learned to deal with and move ahead.

The Muslims and the far left have come up with an insane version of history that cast Muslims as victims.Islam demands your respect and pay attention to its alleged laundry list of never ending complaints dating back to the Crusades.

There is zero talk of the Muslim role in the slave trade. Even more absurd Muslims point the finger at Jews. Blacks in America also tend to ignore the black role in the capture of slaves.There is a reason for this overt hypocisy and peversion of facts. Education has been dominated by the far left and history is now being created
in a manner that has victims and victimizers. The Western Capitalist is always the bad guy and the indigenous people are always cannonized.

However in the case of Islam the colonized were much more brutal to the colonized then the West ever was. Islam is a colonial theft based political system that masquerades as a religion. Its popularity was the rampant justification of theft by uncivilized nomads against sedentary people.

Islam was spead via a series of invasions and Arabs are not indigenous in many of the areas they claim today. Jews are clearly the indigenous people in Israel and lived under a series of JIm Crow laws. Arabs create fictional ethnicities and lecture Jews and Christians about colonialism. The treatment of indigenous people
Jews, Christians, Zoroastrians and others can not be compared to aparthied or Jim Crow as it was far worse and lasted longer.

We hear the familiar refrains about Crusades and Mongol Hordes. However the Mongols were just better at the nomadic warfare game then the Muslims. A Muslim crying about Mongol or Crusader evils is comedic given their own history of predatory behavior.
We do not hear about the dhimmi system Jews , Christians and others were forced to live under. We do not hear about Muslim bloodbaths in India, Egypt , Assyria and elswewhere. We do not hear about forced conversions, massacres and Jannisaries.

Instead what we get is Fanon victimization stories an PC baloney . The West did ....... The story of the brutal treatment of minorities under Islamic rule is swept under the rug.

Sorry Poultry , perhaps you should take the time to read Bat Yeor before you critique Bat Yeor. I have read others describe and quote the sections from this book
but it is far more vivid in the original. This book should be required reading in every Middle Eastern studies department. However what we get is Armenian histoty minus the chapters on the genocide. We mustn't offend the sacred feelings of muslim victimhood

Mr Beamish in 08, Ducky to the library and 167 to get labotomized


Mr. Ducky said...

Happy opening day !!!!!!

As I contemplate the complete shambles of the New York Spankees starting staff it means everyone gets a free dump on Ducky today.

That's right, in honor of opening day you get to take your best shot with no reprisal.

nanc said...

i like golf.

nanc said...

beak - speaking of trolls - who on earth is "hotbabe" over at fpm today?

beakerkin said...

I was wondering that myself ? Apparently who ever this is knows both myself and Hank. People chang identities often.

Did you notice Hank is getting upset over the Starbucks jokes.

nanc said...

no, but for the last two or three weeks, da weaz has posted on most of the articles advertising his blog - but this morning - no weaz...hmmmmm... i've set a snare for him if it is him. i noticed your starbucks jabs.

nanc said...

cynthia mckinney article fpm - the sneezle is busted - got him! see my post to max.

nanc said...

p.s. nanc never changes identities, however her other personalities i'm not so sure of! laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

nanc said...

f.y.i. beak this posted at fpm:

classic sneezle statement.

Always On Watch said...

LOL at that opening paragraph!

Sorry, Duck, I couldn't help myself.

Baseball season opens--my time of the sports year.

Mr. Ducky said...

Beak, I have a film suggestion for you, Miklas Jansco's "The Red and the White".

It concerns a battle for a monestary during the Russian civil war. The violence isn't graphic but the film concerns violence nearly entirely. Thing is that you don't know which side is which. It's very hard to determine who the aggressor is at any point.

I think you get my drift.

Anonymous said...

mr. ducky,

I'm not going to take shots at you knowing you won't retaliate in kind. What's the fun in it? I enjoy seeing you get your dander up. Besides the Spankies and Commie-Sox are BOTH going nowhere this year...Tampa Bay and Baltimore are destined to fight it out for the AL East! (Sorry, it's hard to say it with a straight face).


Robert Bayn said...

I havent read this book, neither do i have plans to read it, but i will say this, as i have stated before. The Crusades were very sick. History has many victims, Muslims were victims of some evil acts during the crusades, modern day Christians ignore the effect the Crusades have had on todays Judeo-Christian/Islamic relations.

One who ignores his past is doom to repeat it.

How things change, they stay the same, eh?

Anonymous said...


If the Muslim's are still upset over the "crusades", they need to all go and slit their own throats. The "reparations" and "forgiveness" boats left a long, long time ago.


Robert Bayn said...


Some things can never be forgiven, i will put you in the class of people they seem to ignore the past, but i already knew this, from previous discussions we have had on this.

Mr. Ducky said...

Long shot on Tampa Bay , eh Farmer. I'll admit that they have done a smart job of strengthening the club the right way over the last several years.

Could be trouble. It could be a tough division.

Freedomnow said...

I am going to play the devils advocate...

The Jews are not indigenous to Israel. They were a Semitic tribe that were assimilated into Sumerian culture. However, it is believed that they peacefully migrated to Israel before becoming entangled in warfare with their neighbors (yes, the Philistines came later).

Anyways, great article. Western civilization is still the most liberal on the planet...

Anonymous said...


Just a few words of wisdom from Nietzsche...

The advantage of a bad memory is that one enjoys several times the same good things for the first time.

To forget one's purpose is the commonest form of stupidity.

But thus do I counsel you, my friends: distrust all in whom the impulse to punish is powerful!

The most perfidious way of harming a cause consists of defending it deliberately with faulty arguments.


Robert Bayn said...

The most perfidious way of harming a cause consists of defending it deliberately with faulty arguments.

There goes one to live by, that both people on the left and right should learn.

Jason_Pappas said...

The Crusades was a poorly executed response to 400 years of Islamic aggression. Contrary to what you’ve read, rb, Christians and Muslims were fighting continuously before the Crusades. But these were Greek Christians who apparently don’t count to most PC historians. In the 9th century, if I remember correctly, the Greek Byzantine military reclaimed land up to the gates of Jerusalem including the important Christian city of Antioch. Of course, the Seljuk Turks, having converted to Islam, gave the Byzantine Empire (which considered itself the Roman Empire) a renewed threat. It was then that help was requested of the Latin Christians.

Now, I’m not apologizing for the Crusades. Sometimes both sides are worth damning. They both are fighting for oppressive theocratic authoritarian societies. The fact that one was formally the aggressor (Islam) hardly makes the other side angels. However, Islam is imperialist by design. The West has evolved; Islam can’t. Islam is still that damnable theocratic Dark Age warrior-like superstition that Mohammad created. Islam should apologize because it hasn’t reformed and still brings nothing but pain and death to the world.

American Crusader said...

Yes Ducky...opening-day is always great. I just wish that Kansas lasted a little longer in the NCAA...oh well, next year (damn that gets old).

Revisionist history is the new journalistic trend. We in the West are always apologizing for some atrocitie. Just recently a reporter for CNN was comparing the riots in Paris to Tiananmen Square (Iran Watch). It seems the more upsurd the claim, the faster the media latches onto it along with their brain-damaged lackeys.

American Crusader said...

cynthia mckinney...hahahaha, I can't stop laughing. Too Funny

American Crusader said...

This is from 20 minutes ago:

WASHINGTON Apr 3, 2006 (AP)— U.S. Capitol Police on Monday asked a federal prosecutor to approve an arrest warrant for Rep. Cynthia McKinney after she tangled with a uniformed officer last week.

"We are working with Capitol Hill police to fully understand and appreciate the incident," principal assistant U.S. Attorney Channing Phillips told The Associated Press in a telephone interview.

Citing the ongoing investigation, Phillips declined to say whether the referral included a recommended charge against the six-term Democrat or when a warrant for her arrest might be issued.

In a statement, Capitol Police said it "has referred its investigative findings to the U.S. attorney." The department must acquire approval from U.S. Attorney Kenneth L. Wainstein before it can ask a judge to issue an arrest warrant on assault or other charges.

Justin said...

I would not hold my breath waiting on that warrant. This congress woman has thrown out 3 words that strike fear in the hearts of federal attorney's.

1. Shes a woman.

2. Shes a Black woman.

3. Shes a Black Woman that is a congress person.

She has the full backing of the ACLU, The NAACP, and of course Harry Belafonte. When people have had enough and say enough to this rag tag herring of Racisism and make people be responsible for their actions they will always get away with what you or I would never be allowed to.

Perhaps these people who are hired to protect not only her but the other congressmen and women should just say well, we cant really go around enforcing these rules and let the whole bunch be responsible for their own security. If some whako gets through They should use the old well since the McKinney incedent we just decided it best not to take the chance of commiting another racisit act.

Mr. Ducky said...

"Contrary to what you’ve read, rb, Christians and Muslims were fighting continuously before the Crusades."

Can you site some reliable sources on that one?

"In the 9th century, if I remember correctly, the Greek Byzantine military reclaimed land up to the gates of Jerusalem including the important Christian city of Antioch."

Reclaimed? Bit of editorializing. Are you saying that Greece has suzureity over Jerusalem?

Mr. Ducky said...

Damn, I'd like to see McKinney share a cell with Bugman DeLay.

Can't happen.

beakerkin said...


Technically speaking the Greeks rulled Israel longer then the Arabs and have a superior claim. Turks also ruled linger then Arabs and have a better claim.

Jews ruled the area the longest and Arabs have no basis for their claims.

Jason_Pappas said...

Can you site some reliable sources on that one?

I’m reading a history of the Byzantine Empire. I’ll get you the exact reference when I’m home.

Are you saying that Greece has suzureity over Jerusalem?

The [Eastern] Rome Empire, which some 17th century French historian called the Byzantine Empire, was Greek speaking. Greek was the language used by educated writers and scholars from the Balkans through Levant and into Egypt since after Alexander and until the conquest by the Arabs. The New Testament was written in Greek. Asia Minor was populated by Greeks and Jews (See Acts 19:10)

So yes, Islam was fighting the Greek-dominated Byzantine Empire for 800 years.

Robert Bayn said...

Contrary to what you’ve read, rb, Christians and Muslims were fighting continuously before the Crusades.

Well yeah i know if it does not include a religious right agenda that Christians are always right, than it must be wrong.

You are right there were many battles, however at the time of the Crusades, most areas were living in peace.

Unlike most today, i will not, nor will i ever give Christianity a free pass as a peaceful religion, because it has never been no such thing, it is like all other religions, it has a very violent past, sure it has calmed down now, as soceity as changed, but i won't give it a free pass, no one here gives Islam a free pass, as they shouldn't, and neither will i give Christianity a free pass.

The crusades were sick and wrong, and as for someone who grew up as a christian and still consider myself to be, despite i think the church is loonie, i'm ashamed of what my faith took part in, and those who ignore the facts of the crusades, are the same people saying "they hate us for our freedom", NO SIR, it goes deeper than that, i said it before.

"he who ignores his past, is doom to repeat it"

Freedomnow said...


Although I despise Mao, his statement religion is the opiate of the masses strikes a chord with me.

However, Christianity has undergone many reforms over the years. To the point that even the Catholic Church defended the poor in El Salvador in the face of certain death.

The separation of Church and State is almost complete in western society. The ACLU will see that the process accelerates even further.

There are no Christian suicide bombers and most of all there is no reason to criticize the church for things that happen almost a thousand years ago.

Homophobia would be the only legitimate grip I can think of and that is a problem that endemic of the human race. It is not exclusive to Christians.

Freedomnow said...

and when I say criticize...I mean criticize the modern church for what happened so long ago...

(I know how you guys like to nit-pick)

Jason_Pappas said...

Here it is Ducky: Byzantium: Greatness and Decline by Charles Diehl 1926 page 14:

"From the end of the ninth century and especially after the first three decades of the tenth, the Empire once more boldly took the offensive along all its frontiers. In Asia, the Arabs retreted from the line of the river Halys to the further side of the Euphrates, and the imperial armies overran Cilicia, Syria, and Palestine. John Tzimisces thrust forward his squadrons to the very gates of Jerusalem."

This is just one part of the continual fighting between the Muslims and the Orthodox Christians during the 400 years before the Crusades.

And, no, RB, the French author, Charles Diehl (1859-1944), was not a Christian funddie. Peace? Islam is said to have bloody boarders for a reason.

Kyle said...

I believe Diehl is the same historian who did a survey of the Seven Years War which I see cited as a reference but cannot find any existing copies in print. Of course it wouldnt help much me since I think it was only printed in French and My french is atrocious.

Freedomnow said...


Why did you let Ducky berate you about something you know more about? He didnt even know or at least acknowledge that the Byzantines ruled Jerusalem for many years before Muslim conquest. In either case you should have told him to hit the books so he could educate himself.

The Byzantine Empire was continually challenged by the Muslim warmongers, just like everyone else. When the Muslims finally sacked Constantinople they massacred everyone in the city.

Now the greatest churches in the Eastern Orthodox faith are mosques. Can you imagine if anyone dared to turn a mosque into a church?

They were blood thirsty savages then and still are today. Although, Muslim atrocities in the Middle Ages were on par with the morality of the day. Unfortunately, they still have a Medieval attitude towards the loss of life.

Freedomnow said...

(unless they can use it for their own profit)

MissingLink said...

You are right there were many battles, however at the time of the Crusades, most areas were living in peace.

Like Europe between the invasion of Poland and France?

Besides, this is not true.
In fact it was the Greeks who asked the Pope for help as they were under constant Muslim attack.
With stability at last achieved in the west, Alexius now had a chance to begin solving his severe economic difficulties and the disintegration of the empire's traditional defences. In order to reestablish the army, Alexius began to build a new force on the basis of feudal grants (prĂ³niai) and prepared a to advance against the Seljuks, who had conquered Asia Minor and were now established at Nicaea.

However, he still did not have enough manpower to recover the lost territories in Asia Minor, so once again he devised an intelligent solution to his predicament. Having been impressed by the abilities of the Norman cavalry at Dryrrhachium, he sent his ambassadors west to ask for reinforcements from Europe. The ambassadors dispatched their mission with great success - at the Council of Piacenza in 1095, Pope Urban II was impressed by Alexius's appeal for help, which spoke of the suffering of the Christians of the east, and hinted at a possible union of the eastern and western churches. Pope Urban wanted to find a way in which the martial energy of the western nobility could be channelled to benefit the church. Alexius's appeal offered a means not only to accomplish this goal, but also to consolidate the authority of the Pope over Christendom by uniting all Christian nations under one common cause.
From Wikipedia

The Islamic conquest towards the Balkans was continuous.
The Byzantine Empire hoped to use the West in regaining the lost grounds.
Furthermore there was a continuous Muslim Push towards Ethiopia (the last bastion of Christianity in Africa).
The trade between Asia and Europe was totally broken and the Muslim pirates controlled the Mediterranean until the battle of Lepanto 1571.
Atrocities by Crusaders? - Sure but can you tell me which particular atrocities you have in mind?
In Jerusalem it was mostly the Jews and Christians who actually suffered (apart from the Turkish garrison the city was predominantly Christian and Jewish even then).

As you know very well The Germans also claim they were submitted to torture and inhuman treatment during the WWII (e.g. Dresden, Berlin).
Sure, poor Germans.

Talking about atrocities - please read history of the Balkans under Muslim rule.

People living in the West tend to forget that us - Eastern Europeans had to fight with Islam for survival until the 19th century, while Western idiots like Goethe had a romantic vision of Islam as the purest religion.
(At least another romantic, Byron didn't).

beakerkin said...

Felis this book is more vivid then the quotes of Spencer or others.
Jiyzah was only part of the story and this may seem familiar. Loose bands of nomads also extracted Jiyzah and slaves. The government did nothing to prevent these added attrocities.

The section about Jannisaries could fill a book alone.

Robert Bayn said...


I agree the church has come a long ways, i don't agree with the church, because they don't even go by what their own bible says, instead they pick a few things here and there. Plus have issues with the Origin of the bible, and the early church, however that does not take aways my faith in Christ.

Jason_Pappas said...

Thanks FreedomNow for picking up where I left off. I had to go and could only put in a few words and a quote. MissingLink also has further details to fill out the picture. I don't know why Robert Bayn has a white-washed view of Muslims as victims. The truth is the opposite. As I said the Greeks (and we might add the Persians) weren't angels but let's not forget that Islam was and still is a religion founded by a warrior who gave Muslims a very violent example to follow.

Robert Bayn said...

don't know why Robert Bayn has a white-washed view of Muslims as victims

Because they were during the Christian Crusades, i guess roasting a baby on a fire and eating it like chicken is not that bad, i mean how dare i think they were victims.

Jason_Pappas said...

I guess you'd say the same thing about the Germans and Japanese we killed in WWII.

Or let’s consider our allies, the USSR. Did you know what they did to the Germans when they invaded? Did you know that just under 10% of the German population was killed. Were the Germans the victims of WWII by your logic?

Freedomnow said...

I don’t see any relevance in the crusades that can be directly linked to events today. If I am missing something let me know.

The Crusades were over long before even the Ottoman Empire existed.

In ancient times armies sacked cities and sold the people into slavery like it was a right. Christians were no worse than the Muslims, the Mongol hordes or any of their contemporaries.

Its one thing to get in an argument with your best friend and bring up something from 35 years ago when you were kids, but this is ridiculous. There is no living legacy of any substance that still exists from the crusades except for some ruins in the desert.

If the crusaders still occupied Sidon or Acre then I would say you have a point, but who remembers such an occupation? Whoever is upset over the crusades has a serious problem. That’s like getting upset over the Persian invasion of Greece or Rome’s destruction of Jerusalem. Should the Jews demand compensation for that and boycott Italian goods?

This is the 21st Century...

Always On Watch said...

Can't anything ever just be over and done with? Sure, learning from history is important. And I often have my nose in a history book.

But what happened during the Crusades is way in the past. Can't the Muslims just move on? Don't we expect other groups to?

By not letting go of the past, Muslims put me in mind of the Hatfields and the McCoys. Not a perfect analogy, of course.

It's late, and I'm being simplistic. I know that. Sorry.

Great history info here, both from Jason and from Missing Link.

Where have I heard of Diehl before? That name is very familiar, but I just can't place it at the moment.

Jason_Pappas said...

I found the Diehl book in a second hand bookstore. I like books written in different time periods. I can average out the bias of the period.

Can't the Muslims just move on?

That's the problem. They can't change. Lefties keep bringing up the Crusades because they have to compare Islam's present with Christianity's past. If I were a Muslim, I'd be insulted by Lefties who say "but Christians used to do bad things, too."

Robert Bayn said...

I don’t see any relevance in the crusades that can be directly linked to events today. If I am missing something let me know.

Thats the point i'm making, people don't see it, but those in the Islamic world, still see it as it happened just yesterday.

Robert Bayn said...

*insert "he's a leftie" cheapshot*

Mr. Beamish the Instablepundit said...

As I contemplate the complete shambles of the New York Spankees starting staff it means everyone gets a free dump on Ducky today.

Feh. Baseball sucks. The real sports start 5 months from now.

Warren said...

Get off my land! Your ancestors despoiled it and took it from my ancestors, (Cherokee) and killed babies and women and made slaves of us. Then you drove my people into the desert where there was no game to hunt or land suitable for agriculture and left us to die.

Now, no matter how I feel about it, am I now justified in killing you or attempting to run you off your property or taking your property from you by force of arms or threats of violence? Am I justified in blowing up people and murdering children?

The events I am speaking of happened only a few hundred years ago and not a thousand.

Is it sane?

I won't even point out that my ancestors were just as murderous as yours or that they also killed women and children and took slaves. I won't even point out that my ancestors stole this land from others of their own race.

Gee, I guess I just did!

Get the point?

Robert Bayn said...

Get off my land! Your ancestors despoiled it and took it from my ancestors, (Cherokee) and killed babies and women and made slaves of us.

I happen to be Cherokee Indian too.

Interesting comparison, and as whacked out as it may seem, some valid points.

Mr. Beamish the Instablepundit said...


Dude. Jeep Chrysler named a shitty truck after our tribe.

The white man must pay!


Freedomnow said...

Mr. B I think you qualify for tenure at one of our prestigious universities.


nanc said...

everybody's a cherokee - well this oglala wants everyone the hell out of HERE and don't even think of going to ireland either - they're both mine! guess i'll have to consider dual citizenship...

morning everybody!

Warren said...

Robert said:
"I happen to be Cherokee Indian too."

Then you should understand even better.

As I've said before, there isn't a square inch of arable land on this earth that hasn't been fought over, taken, and in turn conquered again.

No group is blameless. Each groups existence is built on a mound of bodies and a river of blood. There are no exceptions.

That, is one of the reasons that I do not believe in "group rights".

Beamish said:

"Dude. Jeep Chrysler named a shitty truck after our tribe.

The white man must pay!"

Yea, around $30,000 a pop.

Revenge is sweet!

Good morning sunshine!

You would have made a great Contrary.

Always On Watch said...

Warren: there isn't a square inch of arable land on this earth that hasn't been fought over, taken, and in turn conquered again.

No group is blameless.

We can't turn back the clock. Obsessing on looking backward results in stagnation--or worse.

La Raza Unida and Aztlan are pushing the reconquista. The scenario is surreal.

beakerkin said...


I am not Cherokee either and have no Native Ameican Heritage. My neice Leslie is part Cherokee as well. I think it is safe to assume the Mad Zionist has no Native American heritage.

Anum probably thinks Muslims invented Native Americans.

Jason_Pappas said...

And while we’re at it Turks, a Steppe people from central Asia, occupy the land my ancestors called home for 3000 years (since Homer to the fall of Constantinople and many still lived in Asia Minor until even 50 years ago.) Is it time to kick out the Turks from “Occupied Greece?”

A few years back, I had an amusing argument with a “Palestinian” Arab who obviously had a good life in America but was still complaining about the existence of Israel and the ancestral home that is gone. I mentioned that 50 years ago Constantinople still had a 25% Greek population and 100 years ago Asia Minor still had a large community of Greeks and Armenians. Should we demand Turks leave “Occupied Greece?”

By the time I finished he was calling for an Intifada against the Turks! But then again, Arabs never liked the Turks either. He couldn’t see matters in terms of individuals, changing times, and human progress.

As the Spanish proverb says, “living well is the best revenge.”

beakerkin said...


This is true that many of my friends in College were Greeks and Armenians whose ancestors left Turkey around 100 years ago. The Assyrians left the Ottoman Empire around the same time.

The irony is that when these peaceable people leave and set up local communities guess who moves in. The local Copts in Jersey City fled Muslim violence so guess where
the local Muslims set up their community on top of the Copt community.

Mr. Beamish the Instablepundit said...


You don't understand. To do our tribe justice in naming a vehicle after it, it absolutely, positively shouldn't be a Chrysler product, and it should be well-made and reliable and have the mark of pride and craftmanship, which means, you guessed it, NO UNION LABOR MUST TOUCH ANY PART OR COMPONENT!

(I can't stress that enough...)

The Jeep Cherokee is insulting. Think about it. How many other Native American tribal groups look at a Jeep Cherokee and say "Wow! I wish they made a Jeep Navajo!"

None, right?

So, I think that everyone who has profitted from the Jeep Cherokee series over the years, from the chairman of the board at Chrysler to the union hump that watches robots build them, should be sued for every penny they have.

(Non-Cherokee don't worry, we're going to team up and go after American Airlines next...)

nanc said...

okay beak, you and madze get to stay with me!

nanc said...

p.s. anum must go!

nanc said...

warren said of nanc:

"You would have made a great Contrary."

oh yes i would have!

beakerkin said...

Anum has been quiet the last couple of days. She has found that Americans do not see the world she envisions. Most likely she will move on . She seems to like AC's blog and to a lesser extent this one.

MissingLink said...

Thats the point i'm making, people don't see it, but those in the Islamic world, still see it as it happened just yesterday.

And of course it is fair to say:
You started it baby.

nanc said...

i'd bet anum is lurking...until the next big thing...

Robert Bayn said...

And of course it is fair to say:
You started it baby.

no argument there.