Tuesday, July 08, 2008

The Final Conversation about Gays, Christianity and Respected Friends

I want to point out the deep respect that I have for both Justin and Rob. Somehow in all of these posts they never do seem to get around to ever mentioning the parts about respect and friendship. It is very hard to disagree with Justin because of the respect factor.

I want to remind the narrow minded among us that Justin is a friend and some of you need to be reminded he is a man I admire. He is a Vietnam Veteran, a theologian, an honored father and friend to all those who know him. Some of us are extremely narrow minded and judge the whole man by one aspect of his life. This aspect of his life is none of any one's business except for that of his partner. Above all, he is a human being entitled to respect.

I want to point out the absurdity of the people who will toss hateful words at an admirable man like Justin or Rob and give an acolyte of class genocide and treason respect. There is something extremely warped with those of us who hurl abuse at a veteran and treat communists with kid gloves. Sorry, but class genocide, treason, theft and populist anti-semitism are not alternative lifestyles.

Sometimes, Gays do tend to over react to the very hateful words that do come from evangelicals. However, the norm of rank and file lay people is to love the sinner and hate the sin.Homosexuality is not the sum of all sin. However, discussions about Civil rights do not belong in a theological context.

I want to state that the context and origins of Nazi, Communist and Anarchist anti-semitism have absolutely nothing to do with its Christian counterparts. The misguided Christian anti-semitism was purely theological and absolutely never based on racial eliminationalism or class genocidal. Convetrts were typically left alone and plenty of people practiced their religion in private. Even Jihadi based anti- semitism was never based on racial eliminationalism.

Hitler in general is probably the most over analyzed subject in history. However, one can cherry pick whatever statements and come up with whatever they wish. Hitler, had plenty of anti Capitalist statements and he had a whole wing of far leftists. The subject of homosexuality and Nazism is far more complicated than typically presented. There were Gay Nazis and there were gays sent to concentration camps. The actual number of fatalities is unknown but professional researchers have difficulties coming up with 2,000 names. Even the most inflated estimate is 15,000 that is likely a fraction of the total gays in Berlin. The anti gay policy was never implemented outside of Germany. Thus if you were a gay Pole or Balt nobody cared. This is not to say that that individual gays did not suffer. However, they were clearly not targeted as directly on eliminationalist grounds as Jews and Gypsies who were marked for death as subhuman.

My views on Christianity are largely based on Alvin Schmidtt, Dinesh D'Sousa and my own eyes. Inevitably whenever, I encounter a rabid anti-semite they are almost always a communist, Anarchist or some other form of leftist societal garbage. I do not consider advocates of liberation theology Christians. Liberation theology is merely a vehicle for communist subversion of religious orders. This subversion also takes place in reform Judaism with fake Rabbis such as Rabbi "LSD" Lerner.

I live in and am a proud member of Western Civilization. The true apex of Western Civilization is Americanism. I do not need lectures from the salon set Euroweenies with burning cities about liberty and justice. Every day, I meet plenty of Europeans
who are Muslim, African, Hindu and Asian who would tell you that they feel freer to excell and be an acepted part of the culture in the United States than in the European countries they left. These imigrants and the exiles from Venezuela, Vietnam, China and ex Eastern European emigres are the invisible people who are never listened to.

I enjoy the right to practice my faith on my own terms and the right to be an equal member of the greatest family ever known to man, the American people. The journey to the present did involve many errors including those against my own people and indigenous peoples elsewhere. However, the notion that indigenous people should have rights and that slavery was inhuman originates in the very Christianity that the high minded arrogant gin impaired solonistas and their American wannabes gets lost in the mix.

Like any other movement Christianity has been abused by those seeking power. However, it does not readilly avail itself to inhumanity as secular communism to crimes against humanity or a religion based upon submission.

I do respect Justin's passion for his position. However, the truth is that radicals never get anything accomplished. The folks at Act Up set back the cause of gay rights decades with their sophomoric temper tantrums. Genuine progress and respect will only come through working together and respectfully with Christians and other reasonable types. Obviously people who use nasty slurs are not amenable to practical
discussions on a higher level. I would not urge them to engage bigots any more than I would ask a fellow Jews to engage Communists who advocate the Protocols of the Elders of Zion 2.0.

Moving on to the question of if marriage is a civil contract or a theological matter. Most of us agree that dog ownership and driving privilages are regulated by civil authorites. The very laws of who may marry is a central part of every religious order. A civil union avoids the government intrusion into theological law where it does not belong. Perhaps the Duck will find the section in the Talmud or Hindu tracts that deal with driving privilages.


Beamish said...

I believe the individual gay person should also understand that their deviant sexual behaviors are an exotic disease vector that puts the normal general population at risk, and that no amount of lispy caterwauling on their part is going to change that simple biological fact. They need to comprehend the fact that this in turn has historically engendered the consequences of the general population regarding homosexuals among them as both deviant and abnormal. Modern medicine may have given humanity the ability to survive turning our bodies into biological warfare experiments, but seriously, it's not a license to see how far up your colon you can start Hepatitus-C colonies. (Homosexuality was actually classified by the American Psychiatric Association as a deviant behavioral disorder until 1973, when gay psychiatrists re-writing the DSM decided that their flaming, lispy, tantrum-tossing deviant feelings of self-esteem were weaker than the scientific method...)

But enough of that. I'm not the best of Christians by any stretch of the imagination, but I'm pretty sure the Bible is very clear that God finds homosexual activity to be an abomination to His sight. I'm pretty sure he didn't mean drinking Samuel Adams beer or collecting showtunes music, but rather the deviant same-sexual acts that define homosexuality itself.

I just don't see how one can square identifying oneself as one who participates in an activity Biblically deemed an abomination to the sight of the LORD as a faithful follower of either Judaism or Christianity.

"Gay Christian" is one of the more warped oxymorons of our time.

beakerkin said...

Mr B

The Bible does spell out explicitly your point about homosexuality. However, it also states the laws of kasruth and getting circusmsized on day eight. I do not even want to go into the theological minefield of Sabatarians.

This is not to say there is not theological legitamacy in any of the points. However, it is clear that current practice is not litteral from the old Testament in many cases.

That being said I want to point out that much of the rebellion against the Anglican hierarchy was labeled as simple homophobia. This misses a larger point of an arrogant far left elite listening to the gin soaked salonista crowd and arrogantly ignoring the wishes of its congregants.

I want to disagree with your depiction of homosexuals. However, I have always cautioned about the interpretations of a possible biological cause of homosexuality.
Would we view being short, red haired as genetic variance or abnormality. There is potential negative conmsequences to this information.

I would add adulterous Christian, onanist Christian and libertine Christian as well to the list of oxymorons. 99% of people practice Onanism at one point and the other 1% are liars. More to the point Christianity as I understand it is about forgiveness and redemption.
All of us have plenty to repent for
and remember the part about casting the first stone.

Beamish said...

Christianity is not a license to commit acts considered an abomination to the sight of God.

As I understand it, there's a day foretold in Christian prophecy when many who believe they are Christians are going to find out that they aren't from the Expert Himself.

Forget homosexuality for a second. Let's take up another abomination to the sight of God. Witchcraft. "Suffer ye not a witch to live."

Could you imagine the uproar if someone came along claiming to be a Wiccan Christian?

How about idolatry, another abomination to the sight of God. Could you take seriously someone who worships a golden calf statue or a head of lettuce or some broken meteorite in Mecca that calls themselves a Christian?

Gay or Christian, one of the words loses its meaning when you put the two together.

beakerkin said...

Wicca is considered a seperate religion. However, some wack job in I think the Anglican Church recently did declare herself a Christian and Muslim at the same time. Then the folks rebel against this mindset and are called bigots.

Some of the problems with Churches and all religions is that the leaders have forgotten the spiritual needs of the congregants is first and foremost.

Always On Watch said...

I haven't said much in related discussions, but I feel that I must say the following:

Also included in the definition of Christianity is the concept of sin -- at least, for most Christians.

For me, if the Bible delineates any particular practice as a sin, that practice IS a sin. For those of us who see our God as both a God of love and of purity, we cannot ignore what the Bible tells us is sinful and just "go our own way." Going our own way leads us away from the Lord's path.

As all can see from various comments I've made on the web, I am no "gay basher." But I do believe that the Bible is clear on the topic of homosexuality.

Ducky's here said...

"Moving on to the question of if marriage is a civil contract or a theological matter."

Let's go real slow for Beak. When you decide to get married who issues the license?

Are you recognized as married without a license from the state?

If you marry in a church without a license is it a legal contract?

If you marry outside a church with a license is it a legal contract?

For the Christians --- what did Christ say about homosexuality?

The Pagan Temple said...

My main complaint against gays has next to nothing to do with their sexuality so much as their politics, mainly involving other things having nothing to do with gay or other sexuality issues.

Ask a gay person their opinions on any issue, and I can almost promise you that probably two thirds of them at the very least, will be marching in lockstep with the left wing of the Democratic Party. Some are farther to the left than that.

If they support those kinds of policies, then the way I look at it, why should I vote for a candidate who would support them (the gays)? I would be cutting my own throat and voting against most of my own basic beliefs, regarding important things to me that has nothing whatsoever to do with gay issues.

"I'm pretty sure he didn't mean drinking Samuel Adams beer or collecting showtunes music, but rather the deviant same-sexual acts that define homosexuality itself."

If showtunes music is not an abomination, the word has no meaning.

By the way, there are those who claim to be "Christo-Wiccans", or "Christo-Pagans".

The world is full of all kinds of people who hold contradictory beliefs. Some might call it "hypocrisy". The actual legitimate term for it is "living".

Always On Watch said...

Check out this story!

The Merry Widow said...

Well put, AOW!
We are all sinners and fall short of the Glory of G*D, but the Bible is clear that sexual sins of all kinds, not only affect the sinner's relationship with G*D, but actually are sins against themselves as well. Proverbs is pretty clear about adultery and the Road to Hell.
Some thing about hugging live coals...
Good morning, G*D bless and Maranatha!


Beamish said...


For the Christians --- what did Christ say about homosexuality?

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished"

The Pagan Temple said...

That's what I like about Beamish. He's a Christian and makes no bones about it, nor tries to pretty it up. It is what it is.

By the same token, there are other sins, and a sin is a sin is a sin.

Going strictly by a Biblical perspective, a gay person can be saved and go to heaven, even if he falls from time to time, as we all do. No one but God can judge the righteousness of the sinner or the saved.

It's quite another matter to change church doctrine to conform to modernity.

Of course, it's also quite another matter to insist that public policy conform to church or religious dogma.

Let the gays marry-in civil marriages, not in churches that still legitimately find it objectionable.

devon said...

beamish when was the word homosexual ever used in by Christ. I have read what he said many times and have yet to see that word. Especially since it never existed until the 1890's

As for marriage well don't you have to have a state liscense for it to be legally recognized. Or is that just a civil contract?