Wednesday, July 30, 2008

Being a Moderate is tough

I want to state that I have never heard of Rev Spitz. If I am hell bound because of my support of gays to live as human beings I take my fate. In my view human beings are entitled to dignity and respect. This respect is only lost by criminal behavior such as killing, stealing or advocating class genocide.

Justin and Rob are my friends end of discussion. Why do some of us define such a wonderful person as Justin on his sexual preference. Do some of forget his military service, humanity, class and friendship. Whatever sins I have done ( and there are some whoppers) are far more serious than those of Justin and or Rob. I accept my fate
and am resigned to it.

I certainly am aware of the quotes from Leviticus. I am not so certain what those quotes in Romans refer to. Perhaps Justin, Junglemom or someone else will enlighten me. I want to separate MZ from this conversation as he really does follow the laws of the Old Testament. In his framework the quotes from Leviticus are clear. In defense of MZ, he has never advocated physical violence against gays. Moreover, I did fight with him several times on this issue.

Christians do not take the words of the Old Testament literally. Moreover, why is there such bitter hatred for that sin and not Onanist or Adulterers. At one point in our live 95% of us will admit to Onanism and the other 5% probably will lie to the end. Many of us have had premarital and extra marital sex. Some of us will even admit to recreational sex. I am guilty on all counts and this goes above and beyond anything done by Justin who is in a committed relationship.

That being said I want to move onto friendly fire. There is no comparison between Fundamentalists Christians and their Muslim counterpart. We can pull out an odd case like an Eric Rudolf of a Baruch Goldstein because such behavior is completely out of character with Christians or Jews. How many of you can Name a Muslim Terrorist not named Abu Abbas, Mohammad Attah or Imad Mugniyah. One certainly can not name many rank and file types beyond a Richard Reid or John Walker Lindh.

Moreover, if one were to discuss this matter in a serious debate with a Stephen Schwartz he would point out George Habash and some other Christians were heavily involved in some of the acts we assume to be Islamic terror. My response is that the context of the PLO was always Marxist and Pan Arab, not Islamacist.

I do not know what is in the heart of a man who made terrible remarks about gays causing 9-11. However, he did apologize and never did repeat this stupidity. I will contrast this with commies blaming Jews for 9-11 and still talking about secret cabals today.

I seriously want to know where all these Gay bar bombings are. 167 made the claim that these were common in Israel and could not produce a single one when challenged.
There may have been a gay bar or two bombed. I would urge us to look at the whole story. The fact that a gay bar was firebombed does not impute motivation. This may be another myth like the Black Churches burning non story. I did a Google search and did not see a rash of these crimes. These are serious crimes that do not happen every day.

I do not see a large Christian movement towards theocracy. I do admit there is some hateful rhetoric on both sides. However, we are Americans and should be adult enough to understand the basis of our laws is Civil.

I have read Rev Spitz site and am still in utter astonishment. I want to point out that I have never been a person who has ever advocated the ends justified the means.
This mentality is exactly the reason I fight communists who would kill millions for a fake utopia. I understand many of us do not like abortion. My dissent is that Roe vs Wade is a deeply flawed precedent. I also understand the passion of some opponents and do support the right of pro life people to exercise their First Amendment rights peaceably. I do not defend extra judicial assassinations, bombings and vigilantism from pro lifers or Bill Ayers style traitors.

15 comments:

The Merry Widow said...

Beaker-Pro-lifers hold that ALL life is precious, and the most vulnerable deserve to be protected.
Capitol punishment is a deterent against egregious and violent acts. It should be rare, but child rapists, rapists and murderers do fall into the category I personally would consider as having earned their executions.
Roe v. Wade was flawed and hustled through on a false premise.
eric rudolf is not a Christian...sorry, but nothing I have read about him supports his true conversion. He may be, but it's VERY unlikely. As is the case of the others mentioned on that site.
I know and like both Justin and Rob, though Rob seems to have dived off the deep end of the leftista pool. That doesn't change the fact that I see them as human beings, flawed and imperfect like I am.
I hate my own sins, and the harm I can commit, same with everyone else, I do not hate people, only the evil they do.
Beaker-I sent you a copy of Romans 1, read it and tell me what you see.

tmw

beakerkin said...

I see the chapter as a whole talking about societal level immorality. With the exception of 27 I do not see this chapter as dealing with homosexuality. I see the chapter discussing and codemning recreational sex. The homosexuality part is included in an overall discussion about societal morality.

The Merry Widow said...

And the root causes of that degeneration...and what G*D truly hates, which is ultimately, those who teach others to sin and encourage them to do worse.
Taking Scripture out of context leads to heresy and fanaticism.
When you look at the whole, you find that when you point a finger, 3 more are pointing back at you.

tmw
Though we are told to judge "action" not "motives", that's G*D's job.

Justin said...

Beak this Rev Spitz guy is just the tip of the iceberg as to what is out there. I do understand that you cannot grasp that some one can call themselves a Christian and preach the vile hatred he and others do.

And yes Beak these people would love to usher in a Theocracy in this country. Pat Robertsons quotes mean exactly what they say Beak. He would love to establish a theocracy in this country. He and people like this Spitz guy would blow your civil law right out from under you.

Beak as you know no one really took the Nazis seriously until they found the one man who pulled them together as a cohesive unit. And look what we were left with.

All it will take is the right spark to pull these loose knit radicals together and believe me what they will commit in the name of Christianity will make the Crusades look like a school field trip.

Like you I wish to see the best in everyone however, I know I have to be vigilant and keep a eye on people like these who say they are Christians. Believe me if you ignore them they do not go away.

Beak how many quotes by these leaders do you have to see before you see what their ultimate goal for this country is?

Here are just a few and believe me this is what they want to happen.

"I hope I live to see the day when, as in the early days of our country, we won't have any public schools. The churches will have taken them over again and Christians will be running them. What a happy day that will be!" Jerry Falwell

"I want you to just let a wave of intolerance wash over you. I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good...Our goal is a Christian nation. We have a Biblical duty, we are called by God, to conquer this country. We don't want equal time. We don't want pluralism."--Randall Terry, Founder of Operation Rescue

I want to be invisible. I do guerrilla warfare. I paint my face and travel at night. You don't know it's over until you're in a body bag." --Ralph Reed,

"When the Christian majority takes over this country, there will be no satanic churches, no more free distribution of pornography, no more abortion on demand, and no more talk of rights for homosexuals. After the Christian majority takes control, pluralism (i.e., multiculturalism) will be seen as immoral and evil...." Gary Potter, journalist, Catholics for Christian Political Action

The Rev. Michael Bray, a convicted abortion clinic bomber and leading advocate of murdering abortion doctors, praises Saudi Arabia for beheading three gay men on New Year's Day. "Let us give thanks," Bray proclaims. "Let us welcome these tools of purification. Open the borders! Bring in some agents of cleansing

James Dobson (Focus on the Family)
"Those who control the access to the minds of children will set the agenda for the future of the nation and the future of the western world."

Beak these people have one goal in mind but at this point they are a headless snake but G-d help this nation should something spark that head.

Gays are just one of their targets just as Jews were the targets of the Nazis. Andrew Sullivan said it best I think. "Gays are not the new blacks they are the new Jews."

And Beak they have never forgotten their hidden hatred of Jews. Even Abraham Foxmen sees this as well.

“The reality, of course, is that those on the religious right aren’t truly interested in protecting their freedom to practice and preach their own faith. That protection already exists. Instead, they seek the power to impose that faith on everyone in America, replacing pluralism and tolerance with theocracy.”

Despite lessons of the Holocaust, Foxman says anti-Semitism is still alive in the U.S. and many other parts of the world.
“I am convinced we currently face as great a threat to the safety and security of the Jewish people as the one we faced in the 1930s—if not a greater one,” Foxman writes in the book,
Abraham Foxman, head of the Anti-Defamation League, argues in the book, Never Again?

Beak no, these people are not truely Christians but they act under the cover of the Christian banners. As I tried to explain to you before to every thing there is a good side and a dark side. Just as there are two sides of every coin. These people are the flip side of the coin but they do carry a lot of political weight.

And Beak when you hear people like John Hagee say he supports Israel. Yes, he supports Israel just as most of these people do he is trying to bring about the building of the 3rd Temple and the second coming.

You really ought to read up on just how strong these people are Beak. It just might scare the hell out of you.

Your right in one thing Beak there is no Christian movement for a Theocracy but, there is a huge group on the fringe that is making that move.

Beak did the Communist just come to power over night or did things build up that gave them the chance to take that power. Did the Nazis come to power in one day? No, they worked underground and took the opportunities as they came until it was too late to stop them.

And Beak these people are just like the communist you fight. They would kill millions while preaching a false utopia.

I cant speak to 167 claims but Beak you yourself know that things start out small and if not put in check they begin to grow exponentially. While you may find these actions as odd happenings now they will only get worse as things go on and they will reach your Al Queda requirement.

These people are your Klu Klux Klan with out the hoods and robes. They want the abortionist, they want the gays and then they will want the Jews.

I know I have a huge distrust for these people but the secrets in their hearts are not really that seceret when you look at them.

And you will be called worse than disgusting Beak you will be called worse as time goes on.

No, dont lose your faith in your fellow man but you have to do as we say here. When you see a rattle snake in the corner dont take your eye off him or you will be bit.

If some one rises up that can bring all these groups together as a cohesive unit then all HELL is going to break loose in this country. If they ever get in power the Inquistions will look like tea parties.

Justin said...

Beak I know most of your readers will disagree with the truth about Pauls letter to the Romans however it was not about homosexuality as it is known today. He was addressing the Church in Rome and warning them not to become like the pagan temples and he used the descriptions of the Temple postitues both male and female to make his point.

Many people forget that when Paul was writing his letters Rome was still in power and the Pagan religions were the rule of the day. The Christians were outlawed and considered a cult of people who sacrificed and ate babies. They were considered by the average Roman as demonic.

Paul was addressing a direct concern that they not become as those who worshiped at pagan altars. Male and Female prostitution was a very common practice in the pagan temples.

nanc said...

i take the words of the o.t. seriously, beak.

does God weigh sin? i think not. sin is sin. if i speak poorly of you it would be the same as murdering you in the eyes of God.

surely you've heard of the six, no seven things that are an abomination in the eyes of God?

Proverbs 6:16-21 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

16These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:

17A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

thinking you know more than the Lord - perhaps looking down upon those who know less than you? a lying tongue can be equated not only with lying, but with murder and/or denying what the Lord has spoken. innocent blood - abortion?

18An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,

turning people away from the Lord? people who love to create discord amongst brethren?

19A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

ANYBODY who speaks things that DO NOT line up biblically. people who sow discord amongst brethren are generally those who wish to turn people away from someone in particular - usually done underhandedly and without thinking of the consequences thereof.

the person who does this is usually a very good liar who wishes to be liked by everybody. look out for those types - chances are they're twisting the knife on you when you're not looking.

thankfully, people, under the new testament, have been offered salvation through the atoning blood of the Lamb, Yeshua - do we quit sinning? no. those who say they don't sin are liars. we do, however, become more aware of our sins and are quick to ask for forgiveness and hopefully turn from our wicked ways.

i am the lowliest of sinners. fighting the good fight everyday. it's a battle.

Beamish said...

Paul specifically used the Greek word "arsenokoitoi" in Romans, a term that roughly means "men whom are sexually promiscuous with other men," or ass-f*ckers for short. It's one of the most graphically explicit terms written in the Bible, if read in Greek within the context of 1st Century Roman society. What you might call an off-color remark or cuss word in these days.

It's hard to imagine Paul, who was trained in Torah by Rabbi Gamaliel the Elder meant anything less than what he knew from Leviticus.

Always On Watch said...

Oops! I think that I should have left this comment here and not on the post below....

A little information about Don Spitz, who calls himself a reverend, from a comment he appears to have left, followed by the site's owner's comment:

Rev. Don Spitz said...
Eric Rudolph is not a terrorist, but an anti-terrorist fighter. Those who have killed babykilling abortionists have done so to protect the innocent. People use force everyday to protect the innocent and no one has a problem with it, except when it comes to protecting unborn human beings, then they go ballistic. It's very simple, the unborn deserve the same protection as the born. Born people are protected with force quite often. Force that you would be glad if it was to protect your children against a murderer. Force that you yourself might use to protect your own children from being murdered. The unborn deserve the same protection.
SAY THIS PRAYER: Dear Jesus, I am a sinner and am headed to eternal hell because of my sins. I believe you died on the cross to take away my sins and to take me to heaven. Jesus, I ask you now to come into my heart and take away my sins and give me eternal life.

11:56 PM
Duby said...
Dear Reverend Don Spitz,I'm only going to address two things in your comment.

The first is the blatant disrespect you have shown me by assuming that since I don't agree with your definition of terrorism that I am bound to hell and need to say the sinners prayer and repent of my ways. I'll just leave the first point at that before I can no longer keep the reins on my tongue.

The second thing is my point that you have, I can only assume accidentally, fleshed out for the few readers of my blog. This man is familiar to me, I know people like him, I am like him, so he can't possibly be a terrorist, because then I could be a terrorist, or my wife or neighbor or kids or grandkids or ... could be a terrorist. I know thats simply not true, so I will find some logical way to make it not so in my head. Although many times the logic isn't really logical, and only rational in our own minds. In your case, Reverend Spitz, you have adopted a definition of terrorism that you would be hard pressed to find outside of your circle.

Since you choose not to mention Mr.McVeigh, Mr.Nettles, or the "Trench Coat Mafia", I think it is safe to assume that they fall under your definition of terrorist. I will even venture an educated guess and say that your thought process in regards to those men is the same as mine (and probably many other white people like myself) in regards to all of those mentioned. That is simply to say they are extremes, and they weren't really that much like me in the first place.

1:03 AM

Always On Watch said...

The Law (Old Testament) is the mirror which shows us that ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

God does not bargain when it comes to sin. Sin is sin and results in separating us from God. Excuses before the Lord are no solution, but salvation through Jesus Christ is the answer.

I know that I don't often speak of my Christian faith. Such is not my focus on the web. But my faith is the center of my life, whether I talk a lot about it or not.

Ducky's here said...

"Christians do not take the words of the Old Testament literally."

Tell that to Pat Robertson or John Hagee or any of the other freaks that are quite literal and will kill to prove it.

Always On Watch said...

Duck,
I wasn't aware that Hagee or Robertson had killed anyone or even conspired to do so.

nanc said...

how many people have pat and john killed, plucky?

the truth hurts.

otherwise it would've been said the truth doesn't hurt.

you cannot shape the truth to fit your lifestyle - truth just is - we are to conform to it.

The Merry Widow said...

When you boil it all down, there is only; Truth and not-truth.
The first is OF G*D, the second is a perversion of G*D's Truth.
And all the fancy words and well turned phrases all come down to, if it is Truth, it is of G*D, anything else is destined to the Fire.
But you can present Truth in such a way that it is digestible to people...and acting like a self-righteous snot was NEVER G*D's way.
EVERYBODY is loved by G*D, Jesus said it in John 3, "For G*D so loved the whole world..."
"rev." spitz has forgotten that.

tmw

Ducky's here said...

AOW, take a look at Robertson's involvement in Liberia. The man is a freakin' pig and the fact that evangelicals were unwilling to purge that stinking cancer gives insight into the hypocrisy the right has generated in the evangelical movement.

nanc said...

it is he who will answer to the Lord, plucky - not thee and certainly not me.

pat robertson may have his faults - like the rest of us don't? but, he does do good things for the kingdom.

we all fall down.