Naiche is another ex Bad Eagle poster who has dropped in on a few of the threads. His brand of acerbic wit are welcome wherever I hang my hat.
I am somewhat amused that Batty Ann thinks Naiche and I are the same person. Last I checked he is an Apache and this would likely make me more Native American than Batty Ann or the good Dr.
Or this would mean that Naiche has become Jewish from listening to Lenny Bruce. Perhaps listening to Alan Sherman records played backwards.....
We live in a funny age and one that is somewhat sad. I never thought I would ever see non White White Supremacists. Of course students of the history of the KKK vs Native Americans would be floored by this example.
My bio has remain unchanged. I remain an ordinary Jewish resident from NYC and the Editrix has my age exactly correct. AOW or TMW can attest that contrary to the delusions of some I am
not Black nor aged.
To those who remember Naiche a kind hello to an old friend is always welcome.
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35 comments:
LIFE is like a picnic thus there will always be PIZZANTS around to ruin the event. Or maybe the mindset of some is to interact the only way they know how by BS and the negative side of life which is still part of the PICNIC. Point anyone with a f****king lick of sense knows the badeagle site of WTF ever is just another group of so called spiderwebbers, carbon based units, or humans like all but then the types who stir shyt or drop a line why who the f***ck knows much less spend time thinking on it. the reality is as a Parent of a Son killed in WAR in the pursuit of yankee imperialism yet used by someone whose own mental attributes are driven by what STUPID. YET to be told by who f***king ever this or that or those who have a need to what put their two f****king two cents in shyt that dont concern them. But WTF input the likes on this or any other thread is like the coyotes howl or the buzzards songs, why due to some think of themselves as Eagles or Hawks yet will never be able to BE why, their heads are so far up their AZZ, why who f****ing cares, due to an neverending need of humans for interaction, communication or the ones who think their shyt smells sweet or they have to be RIGHT. Or like the likes of the sobs who protested myself and many others who subjected VETS to vile words actions and deeds. the point is that what f**king piece of paper makes anything or anyone RIGHT, BS that is the gringo way(IE the CON-manche is enrolled), but I understand that time changes cultures and or things as in 50 years ago those who passed did it, now all want to be indian ie nuagers, pagans, or fy**king state tribe indians who want what, ACCEPTANCE, EGO stroke, money(making fy**ing clown outfits or acting like defenders of the indianess when they themsleves learn IT from a fy***ing Book, like a herd mindset or as JUNG states the "Duality of MAN". But in short the premise comes from the book of cheech and chong if it looks like dog shyt, smells like dog shyt, then it is dog shytOr if you want the easy way of looking WHO likes anyone messing with their KIN much less DEAD KIN. But in this so called PC world of blah blah, the OLD WAYS still LIVE to keep the PIZZANTS and AZZCLOWNs from ruining the PICNIC XXXX and for the DENSE or mentally impaired or just dirt dum bigots I am not the beakster maybe the ghost of lenny bruce ta ta
I would remind anyone familiar with writing styles to look at your comment and compare it to my writing style. Anyone with an IQ above 20 could see two different people wrote it. Batty Ann is an imbecile of extraordinary ability.
I am more an Allan Sherman fan than Lenny Bruce.
Maybe Mark Winters will post the Ratt Fink song for Batty Ann.
Hello Naiche, my Friend,
Crazy world we live in, ever changing yet standing still slowly going back in time.
In the beginning Christians claiming to want to reform Indians. It actually was trickery wanting to get rid of us, but hey, surprise...we still stand! When someone professes his Christianity toooooo much, that actually is turn off for some Indians who read a little too much.... me for one. Providence for early Christians was a justification for a complete genocide of some, yet yeagley professes that this country was established on Christianity, those of "HIS" ancestry, the founding fathers, the white anglo saxon protestants.
No I am not angry, crying nor guilty like he says constantly of the American Indians, we are merely reading our History on the net and comparing it to what we have been told, yet unless someone caring Native American places it in the system
most remains untold, just as in the education school systems, most Indian History is untold or halftruth. Reading wikipedia on yeagley tells me that anyone can have input and those people accept it as facts, scary !!!!!!shame on them. Thats what I'm speaking of, nervy white Indian.....
Still here in Phoenix. Saturday we will attend a Walk, not a tea party, nor a illegal immigrant protest, but a Walk for Diabetes in downtown Phoenix, don't know too much yet, but I think it will be a good experience unless there are protestors.....aye!
CM
CM
I do not know about this one. Many of the missionaries dedicated their
lives to their communities. In the case of the Oneida Kirkland literally gave almost all he had. If the community was hungry he gave all he had until he shared their hunger.
He was fairly consistent in wanting Indians to sit out the war. He dedicated his life to improving the community he served.
No doubt there may have been a few
bad missionaries. I would tend to remember that one needs to think about the schools and medicine. A very strong argument can be made that missionaries helped more Native Americans than the far left
folks at AIM.
Beak, you're propensity to constantly cry around and compare the historical equivalent of apples of and oranges on this point is annoying. With all due respect, what position are you in to really declare whether it was just a case of a "few bad apples" in terms of missionaries to this continent? From your logic, let's let certain Christian groups baptize Jewish Holocaust victims. They're just trying to help, you know. Or let's sanitize all of the pogroms that occurred against your people in The Middle Ages, done mostly through various Christan groups. You know, Jews were really lucky to have had the Christians around because I read in a book that a few of them were, uh, you know, "nice" to some of the Jews. Yes, some missionaries acted in good faith (their faith) and tried to help. However, the bottom line is they were agents of change and were given exclusive access to the hear extermination of Native cultures from the 1880s through around WWII.
Your narrow understanding of Native issues, histories, and of the various urban and reservation activist groups mirrors Yeagley's own ignorance of Jews and their traditions. You view every aspect of reality through the lens of capitalist (good guys) and communist (bad guys). Really knowing nothing of how and why Native activism began or what true benefits have come from it, you need to either give a rest or truly make an attempt to learn the issues as best as possible from members of Native communities, much like David needs to try and learn Jewish issues.
You're always railing about the "insider" perspective when it comes to really knowing Jews and their traditions, but, like most other people, Jew and gentile included, feel free as the wind to make generalized comments about Native people. Perhaps from here on out I'll simply refer to every single Jewish organization I come across as Marxist and Communist, and from that, corrupt, unAmerican, and concerned only with Israel at my country's expense. We know how'd you react to that and I'm far to considerate and intelligent to make such generalizations. Indian people deserve a measure of reciprocity.
Ray
But Beakerkin....
What does A.I.M have to do with the early missionaries?
A.I.M. was formed because Indians wanted to be heard in the 20th Century. Not a thing will change the past. Its an injustice to bring the Native Americans up in the same sentence with Communism, unless your speaking of yeagley or baggy ann!
You are no doubt right about the missionaries, I remember reading about a man of the cloth helping the Apache People.... Mangus' People. The deceitful miners only wanted the yellow rock and they tricked the Indians using the man of the cloth into bringing them forward for gifts and sharing of the food. They came because they trusted the man of the cloth(Father ????, my book is at home)and they were blown up slaughered, women an children!
A.I.M., Communism, Far Left or Extreme Right, Democrat nor Republican were not even a whisper in the Wind at that time, just greed for the land and what it held. Savagery against the First People of America is what it boils down to, yet yeagley does not want truth to be told, won't allow it only his mythical badeagle.
I have an Onieda friend in Greenbay, I asked her to send me some of their History, I know her parents were Religious, I think they were Catholic. I do know her own father was full Blood Mexican! Now, how did he end up with a full Blood Onieda way up in Wisconsin? Migrant workers...long ago? I never thought to ask my friend, some things in life are what we just take as normal not unusual until the yeagleys of the world contest the mixing, because of his own prejudice.
CM
FYI from some INDIAN wise MEN
“Upon suffering beyond suffering: the Red Nation shall rise again and it shall be a blessing for a sick world. A world filled with broken promises, selfishness and separations. A world longing for light again. I see a time of Seven Generations when all the colors of mankind will gather under the Sacred Tree of Life and the whole Earth will become one circle again. In that day, there will be those among the Lakota who will carry knowledge and understanding of unity among all living things and the young white ones will come to those of my people and ask for this wisdom. I salute the light within your eyes where the whole Universe dwells. For when you are at that center within you and I am that place within me, we shall be one.”
- Crazy Horse, Oglala Sioux Chief (This statement was taken from Crazy Horse as he sat smoking the Sacred Pipe with Sitting Bull for the last time, four days before he was assassinated.)
I am a red man. If the Great Spirit had desired me to be a white man he would have made me so in the first place. He put in your heart certain wishes and plans, in my heart he put other and different desires. Each man is good in his sight. It is not necessary for Eagles to be Crows. We are poor..but we are free. No white man controls our footsteps. If we must die...we die defending our rights.”
- Sitting Bull, Hunkpapa Sioux
The world makes no sense except for those who keep thinking of themselves as the center of their world for when the angel of DEATH comes ALL will be EQUAL
When a child my mother taught me the legends of our people; taught me of the sun and sky, the moon and stars, the clouds and storms. She also taught me to kneel and pray to Usen for strength, health, wisdom, and protection. We never prayed against any person, but if we had aught against any individual we ourselves took vengeance. We were taught that Usen does not care for the petty quarrels of men.
Geronimo [Goyathlay] (1829-1909) Chircahua Diiyin xxxx religion is manmade or used to kill, lie, any other reasons for the needs of the 'holy perfect full of caca pizzants' hey you want salvation, well start by saving ur own azz soul for all will DIE, even degreed mongrels whose antics are like those of the KKK and the la raza, and any other perfect full of shyt scumsucking dim and half wits who need HYPE and self- promote themselves as experts, thus read the words of real Indians who were not given to become gringo injuns. GODE comes and for the duo of lunacy yall are really funny like the blind leading the blind, IE hitler or again pizz and moan on 'race' or non white folks yet are mongrel breeds, kind of like someone saying 'I love JC but I hate Jews' yep really solid and perfect IE of talking out ones AZZ and for the DENSE, I am the shadow and Lenny Bruce return for humor and satire, or some folks are a JOKE and great only in their own minds LOL
Ray
Lets break this one down into sections.
1) The blame for the crimes against Indians belongs belongs against nations not religious orders. There were bad missionaries. However, many missionaries like Kirkland did dedicate their lives selflessly to the communities they serve. For the most part they built schools,
treated the sick and were advocates for their communities.
Actually you got the wrong buy on the baptizing of the dead. As it is
not part of the Jewish system of belief feel free. We honor our dead
by saying Kadish.
Actually, if you read my writings about the pogroms and the middle age you would see my take is unique. While there was a religious element to much of the violence against Jews it was a case
of people not living up to the words of Christ. Christianity is the basis of the Western Civilization that I am a part of. We have come a long way since then
and I note the role of Christianity
in the positive changes.
I have also been quite clear in not blaming Germany and Poles of today for historic episodes of the past. It is important to acknowledge the history and move forward.
Nobody is harder on so called Jewish communists than I am. In fact I point out that communism is
a religion and these people are not
Jews. If you wish to pile on be my guest.
CM and Ray
Americans are more than happy to hear from Indians themselves. AIM is what it is. When the Sandanistas
were butchering Indians only Russel
Means dropped his manifesto and did
the right thing.
AIM also supports Marxist revolutionaries in Mexico. Somehow
other groups manage to lobby for change and rights without needing pointless violence and economic imbecility.
Tribes do pay lobbyists for a variety of functions. Most of the tribes that have done better have used a bit of Capitalism. The history and the crimes against Indians belong to the tribes, not
to mindless power mad loons.
Unfortunately the new Nation did not honor its word to the Oneida.
After the Revolution it shrunk the land reserved for Indians in NY State. Many of the Oneida moved to Wisconsin. Sadly the Tuscarora were already relocated from the South to NY and likely had to relocate again.
It is important for the United States to honor its agreements with the tribes.
As far as Americanism goes, there is a range of legitimate political
discourse. However, the basis of our nation remains individual rights, respect for private property and civil law. Communism
is antithetical to all American values. I am critical of any group
that is a communist front such as the World Council of Churches, UPJ, ANSWER, Code Pink, National Lawyers Guild and so forth. My views on Liberation theology and its Black corollary are also well known. Communism is evil in all forms and can not be rehabilitated.
My Cherokee ancestors built wooden fortifications in the Appalachian mountains so that they could keep their casinos and liquor stores off limits to the peaceful dreamcatcher salesmen surrounding them before the white man came and taught them how to be bloodythirsty warmongers.
Indian history. LOL.
Beak, I was referring to the Mormon churche's practice of baptizing the dead according to their beliefs. They were doing this with deceased Jews that died during the Holocaust. I realize that Jews don't utilize baptism.
You really do not not know much of anything about Native history or the various cultures that still exist. I don't have the endurance as of now to have to defend Native activism and the the various chapters of AIM and what they set out to accomplish. I will say that your bringing up the Sandanista issue is a broken record at this point. Just as the various Jewish organizations are diverse, with some doing good things and others screwing up, so to with the various Native organizations.
Again, try reading more than a book over the Oneida. If I were going to pontificate about Jews and Jewish history, I'd also make damn sure I at least experienced different Jewish communities before making such grandiose and generalized statements. Note that I nor CM do that about Jews, as we have too much integrity. On this an many other issues, you can be just as bizarre in your opinions as Yeagley in that you take the contents of your own mind and act as though they represent the truth and norm.
Beamish, I really don't know what your intention is, so I'll save what I was going to say. I'm not looking to start or participate in some sort of tough guy exchange. I will say that you seem to be desperately trying to act as though I or CM have depicted Native people as somehow more than human. People are people and Indians have acted according to every other human being and culture since time began. Your post seems to overlook this. Now, if you can show me where I've presented Indian people having forgone war and violence before Europeans, I'll gladly accept the premise of your bizarre post.
Also, the old cliche of some white guy claiming Indian (Ironically, usually Cherokee descent) as a pretext for saying something stupid about Indian people, as though "your Cherokee ancestry" is somehow supposed to lend more authority to your words, is pretty impotent. Indian peoples have never been either the noble savage nor the ignoble savage, so please don't try and act as though I or CM are playing up to what amounts to non-Indian stereotypes. It's a straw man approach. By the way, Beams, those "bloodthirsty warmongers serve in the armed forces in greater numbers per capita than any other ethnic group in the United States. Does that elevate them to "noble" bloodthirsty savages" in your opinion?
Also, unless you have a specific community you're responsible to for what you say about them and Indian people in general, claiming this or that Indian heritage impresses only other non-Indians. It means less than a tick on a dog's dick to me or any other Indian person.
Lastly, what exactly do you mean by "Indian history. LOL?" You and Beak seem to enjoy knocking down non-Indian accounts of Native history by declaring them to be Marxists, and then acting like you really know a goddamn thing. Maybe privileging what non-Jews say about Jews should become the norm. I wonder how'd that fly?
Ray
Ray
I was aware of the reference to Mormons. If they wish to Baptize the deceased it really is not a concern. The dead are beyond this realm and if it makes some Mormons happy it is OK. It is an honor and they mean well.
You seem to forget the current activities of AIM with regard to supporting Marxist rebels in Chiapas. Moreover, I do not hear a peep from them about abuse of Indians by Hugo Chavez. Sorry, but the record of this crew is paper thin. The Sandanista episode is quite reflective of their priorities that continue until this day.
Where tribes have improved their lives it has been through capitalist ventures of various sorts. Forming a business venture
that employs and generates revenues
for programs within the community
appears to work. These ventures generate money to fund health and educational programs and some revenue for actual tribal members.
Sorry, but if it is wrong for America to herd Indians onto reservations in 1880 it is just as wrong for Hugo to do it in 2010.
The missionaries in Venezuela were
providing vital health and educational services to the communities. Perhaps you should speak to our friend Junglemom who lived there for many years dedicated to her community. She is currently serving in another country.
If you wish I can also track down
a coworkers sister who also spent
years in similar service. These groups serve the poor elsewhere as
well. Somehow they do this all without the political machinations
of Marxism. Then again a Christian
serves the poor in fulfillment of scripture not for some power mad scam. A true Christian is a noble
person even in the eyes of a non Christian.
Somehow Junglemom manages to educate and provide health care without Utopian messages. Her concern is for her community as serving the poor and needy is a duty for Christians. Perhaps you should read the bizarre comments of
American Communists about Venezuelan Indians sanitary habits and lives to a person who lived with them for years.
As for history of Indians, Indians
were themselves and should remain
themselves. They were not proto hippies communing with nature. If they were tiptoeing through the woods it was most likely to kill
an animal for a meal.
The claim that Indians were persecuted because they lived communally is made by Joel Kovel who claims to be a Green. We could go onto sweeping claims that Indians venerated Gays made on college campuses.
Indian tribes were individual unique cultures. They were neither
all innocent, nor all evil. The tribes practiced extensive trade and many practiced slavery. The lives and history of the tribes belong to the tribes themselves, not to a bizarre Utopian death cult. Their story is part of American history and the future.
As for Jewish history, Communists
are always rewriting it every few moments. Lets see according to one Commie the Holocaust is a racket and according to another the Jewish people are mythological.
History should be conveyed without
infantile Marxist narratives. The real world is too complicated for such mendacity.
Sigh, Beak, please understand the HISTORY of how AIM began. Or do you not know this and proceed nonetheless to comment on it?
Okay, first and foremost, as you should know, Indian communities in Central and South America are not the same people and cultures as the ones in the U.S./Canada. They are unique and deserve their right to be themselves and not be volleyed back and forth as the ideological ping-pong balls of Marxists or Capitalists. Reread my other post on this point: Latin American tribes who are fighting their asshole governments for survival, biological and cultural.
They have THEIR OWN FREAKING AGENDAS and will USE the meatheads of their country's political rulers as they see fit. To equate these movements as communist driven is to wallow in pitiful ignorance. What you're doing is denying the agency of these people to make decisions on their own terms. They are not the pets of marxists or capitalists. What you and others are doing is essentially feeding off an echo chamber that suits your comfortable view of reality. Who gives a shit if a few Indians that say they speak for all Indians say this or that about another country?
In your case, the entire cosmological battle since the dawn of time comes down to what are really fairly recent political and economic ideologies. So, while history shouldn't be conveyed through Marxist lens, it shouldn't be held hostage to the other side of the Western coin. Your view of history is like having a map of the entire world that only shows Europe and the Mediteranean.
Now, as to AIM, here is a brief overview. By and large (with some exceptions), the law of the land is that tribes are not under state jurisdiction, but under federal oversight (Worcester v. Georgia). The entire history of federal stances towards tribes is one that has oscillated between coercive assimilation and cultural genocide, to recognizing some degree of semi-tribal sovereignty.
Now, before the 1880s, the U.S. was still engaged in the "pacification" of Western tribes. Once the wars were over, the policy shifted towards encouraged assimilation by any means necessary. Read up on the years from 1887-1934. You have the dissolvement of many reservations into 160 acre plots, forced boarding schools for Indian children, and a severe ban on all aspects of Native spirituality on reservations by your buddies, the Christian missionaries turned Indian agents. Many Indians are nominally Christian while still practicing their own ways as well. That's more than what any Jew does, isn't it? If Christianity as a religion is so awesome, how bout you step up and accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior? No? Then tone down how great the religion's been to Indians if you're not willing to say it alongside your own people.
From there we have a shift in 1934 (Indian New Deal), allowing for tribes to reform their gov.'s but they had to be written down and patterned after the U.S.'s own. The problem was that they left no real separation of powers, paving the way for tribal gov. to abuse their own people later on. Keep in mind that many wanted their old forms of gov., not Indian Reorganization sellouts. But, it was better than the Allotment Era from just before it. Ill continue with more; what I had wouldn't fit.
Ray
CONTINUATION OF MY PREVIOUS POST:
This "experiment" ended in the early 70s under a surprisingly kind president Nixon. However, the families that had been relocated to urban areas now had children who grew up experiencing the abuse many blacks had. AIM was formed first and foremost as a way of ensuring that Indians enjoyed the civil liberties due to them since citizenship was bestowed upon them in 1924. I'll continue as what I had was too long.
After WWII, the gov. once again tried to abolish it's obligations to uphold treaty rights, embarking on a policy of Terminating it's jurisdiction to individual states. Along with this, it encouraged a massive migration of Indian families to cities as a way of further detribalizing them. Massive amounts of land were lost to tribes affected by this policy (Termination and Relocation).
However, after a time, these youngsters desired to get in touch with their own heritages. They knew they were Indian, but had no real connection to their parent's people. When they went back to these reservations, they found mini-civil wars taking place between the IRA governments and the "traditionalists" that wanted reform. These communities helped alter the goals of these urban Indians. They still enjoyed the civil rights that blacks were leading the way in. However, it now became more about the gov. living up to its treaty obligations and to rectify the broken ones. This came to a head for several months in 1973 with the takeover of Wounded Knee in S.D.
Were their jerks in AIM and it's many splinter movements? Yep. Were they all Marxists? Nope. Only someone grossly ignorant of the reality on the ground and who feels brown people are too dumb to accept or reject foreign ideologies ON THEIR OWN TERMS would. I also should point out that the many programs to help salvage tribal languages and to reignite many of the younger generation's interest in tribal ways and religion is a direct result of these brave men and women who stood up for what could have been the end of Native cultures. If you're interested, check out the series "We Shall Remain" on DVD.
So, what you ignorantly call a Communist movement is in fact a time that is looked upon with great reverence by Native people today. It wasn't perfect but thank God this and other movements did take place. My family and people enjoy better treatment as a result. YES, THE NATIVE MOVEMENTS OF THE 60S AND 70S DIRECTLY BENEFITED NATIVE PEOPLE. You're not in a position to declare otherwise either. That's not me rejecting capitalism, that's me rejecting foreign pronouncements on a movement that you really know nothing about.
Did you know that their was an attempt by Nazis to gather Native American support to their ideology? Radio broadcasts as well as literature from Nazi Germany were sent to many reservations, saying that Indian people were really descended from Germanic peoples. "Therefore, join the cause and get back in touch with your real roots." This was laughed at and Native people fought bravely against the Germans and Japanese. So, just because an outside loser acts like they're in control or have an "in," doesn't mean it's so.
Ray
I'll end by saying I do not feel you're a bad guy at all, Beak. I do think you have a particular worldview that at times forces apples to be watermelons, however. I do appreciate your interest in exchanging opinion on this while being civil.
I do feel that I and other Indian people are understandably sensitive to what others say or think they know about our intimate histories with one another and the gov. of this nation. Far too often, people speak about Indian affairs in quick sound bites, simply wishing to make a point about something else by mentioning this or that about Indians. Michael Savage did this the other night. I didn't appreciate it either. Too much ignorance persists about Indian people and their unique relationship to the gov. I obviously don't speak for all Native people any more than you do for Jews.
However, I am in a position to give credit to the activists and their era without having to say each and every person and action done in AIM's name was good or even intelligent. Also, Native peoples, while more closely aligned than hundreds of years ago, are still not a single people. Finding a true coherence that somehow applies to all tribes in this nation is impossible. I imagine that finding agreement within your own community is impossible and you're only one tribe, so to speak.
Ray
Ray
Lets start off discussing Western Civilization, Jews and Christians first. The society we live in and the freedoms we enjoy is a product of an enlightenment that was built upon the ethos of Christianity. The notion of w omen's rights, public education, elimination of slavery,societal tending of the needy and creation of hospitals flow directly through Christianity.
Yes there were plenty of abuses towards indigenous/tribal people and Jews. However, the notions of
the rights of conquered people, accountability of royalty & nobles
is a concept that again flows from Christianity. You can read about this in the Great Divide by Alvin Schmidtt.
As a non Christian, I benefit from
the legacy of this enlightenment
each and every day. When there were
crimes against my people it was a distortion of Christs message. Do I
deny that crimes were committed in
the name of the savior against my people? Of course not, I grasp the history of those who failed to grasp the concepts as stated by their messenger.
A traditional Christian believes that Jesus is the fulfillment of the Judaic prophecies. Acceptance of Christ as your savior allows this person to graft onto God's promise to the Chosen people. It is a benign life affirming religion loved and practiced peaceably for the most part.
Like America its concept is egalitarian. It is open to all who believe regardless of race or ethnic origin. While I am not a Christian I respect the achievements and the life affirming
ways and historical legacy of Christianity.
I have been welcomed as an open Jew
into their homes and Churches. I have never experienced any bigotry
from true Christians. Where and when some bigotry does exist it is
from two groups. Racial power types
are not Christian in any sense or spirit. Liberation theology is an attempt by Communists to subvert Christianity.
I also see the wonderful work of Christian charities each and every
day in my community. While Marxists
talk about Darfur, Catholic Charities brought children to America to live in safety. When there are families who are lost in
a tough city it is often the gentle
hand of a Christian or sometimes
Jewish charity that lends a gentle
hand.
Can I deny the reality I see each and every day? Should we be thankful for the society we currently enjoy?
I will return to the rest later.
Ray
You do know that as an officer, I am a dedicated public servant. I serve the American people each and every day.
Part of that job involves listening to people from all over the world. Perhaps you should listen to those who have fled the evils of Marx. It really is not to difficult to find Cuban Americans, Poles, Chinese or others who have lived under this tyranny. I hear the stories that continue into this
current era.
Nixon like myself were Cold Warriors from the Center Right. The fact that he ended some bad practices should surprise no person who read his writings or that of his student intern Monica Crowley. The question of who turned a decent man and a patriot into a cartoon in history is obvious.
The fact that each tribe was unique
is understood long before these exchanges. As stated again the history of the tribes belongs to the tribes. However, this history
is being stolen by a Utopian political movement for its own agenda. My view is closer to that of Jared Diamond.
Once again we will have to disagree
on AIM. As a community group they have done some local work that is likely good. However, it also has advocated tyranny of the exact same
type committed against Indians in the USA by communist governments. These were bad ideas in 1880 and they are even more so today. While grasping that Indians in Latin America are different the folks in AIM are quite hypocritical on these matters.
There are plenty of wrongs and work
that remains to be done. However, supporting armed revolutionaries attempting to create a Marxist state in Chiapas is a very bad idea. Mexico is not going to lose
and continuing pointless violence
to please bug eyed lunatics is an abomination. If these lunatics ever had to rule anything their state would be worse than living under Mexican rule.
All people of decency understood apartheid was evil. However, allowing a power mad Communist tyrant to rule Zimbabwe for decades has produced starvation
in a food exporter. The people of Chiapas would learn the same lesson as the people of Zimbabwe.
A touch of Marx only adds misery.
Once again the folks at AIM have been very supportive of continiued pointless violence in Chiapas.
Onto missionaries again. In general there lot is a mixed bag and I am not condoning taking Children from their families or suppressing culture. It is ironic that while discussing the positive
impact of missionaries and the local programs of AIM we both point to larger pictures.
All of us including Jews, Indians
have as our American birth right a concept known as intellectual freedom. If person X wishes to live as a devout member of whatever our traditions allow him to seek that truth. Judaism is quite different as missionary activity is forbidden. The Lubavitcher group only seeks to make existing Jews more observant.
As an American my birth right also includes individual rights and liberties. Communism seeks to eliminate and restrict these inheritances.
A Jewish person who practices the
faith sees Communists in the same manner a Black person views the KKK.
“Everything is determined…by forces over which we have no control. It is determined for the insect as well as for the star. Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust—we all dance to a mysterious tune, intoned in the distance by an invisible piper.”
—Albert Einstein There is IRON for ALL to see in these of one of MY Favorite Jews, for what does IT matter if ONE gains the whole world but loses their SOUL quote the good book as are the torah and the quran, ideals meant to give humans a MO, yet who on this planet is perfect, cept the pizzants or azzclowns who promote chaos with LUNACY IE KKK, taliban, or take your pick as in Ignorance is a equal opt employer. Sounds easy but the notion is easier than the 'doing' of IT. I enjoy discourse as seen in the posts above for IT matters not the VIEW, just the human RESPECT of those sharing their views(think hard on that one duo of lunacy) for I have no hate for yall, I just think yall are really FUNNY, in that have a nice life of hate, delusions, bigotry and any other human trait that leads to diatribe not debate or horseshyt yall are full of shyt, opps senior moment. AIM had its good points and bad or again those who wanted glory and ego stroke and others as Lenard Peliter who is a poltical prisoner, though the govt will never give him freedom why, he is their scapegoat. The AIM of today is splintered into glory hounds and old timers still fighting for American Indian rights, or IE aint no dam treaty ever made twix the us govt(gringo) and Indian nations which was ever honored. point that is history not pizz and moaning. or in the words of another 'dreamer' "we all must learn to live as brothers and sisters or ALL will perish as FOOLS' MLK. I have seen DEATH and provided IT for an ENEMY as in WAR. IT dont make ME any better or worse than anyone else and that is the bottom line. I thank CM, Beak, and others for thier input as We all can learn from each other without being pizzants or azzclowns or this some are so smart that they stink of dumazz LOLxxxx Gode comes bye bye the shadow and the INDE JEW(wink wink)
Leonard Peltier is a cop killing psycho being fed 3 meals a day on our dime.
There's your injustice right there.
"You do know that as an officer, I am a dedicated public servant. I serve the American people each and every day. Part of that job involves listening to people from all over the world. Perhaps you should listen to those who have fled the evils of Marx."
No offense Beak but I had to laugh at this. I respect your job as an officer, as I do my brother's. He's taken that "solemn oath" as well. He also gets to chat and talk to all sorts of people and hear their problems as well. It just came off as a little egotistical, that's all. I said that you were fairly cordial, not that you actually were really interested in having your views possibly changed on issues that you are not all that privy to.
As several of my posts should have made abundantly clear, I have no love for Marxism and am quite aware of it's gruesome track record. I'm also very aware of how many right wing Central American nations have labeled their indigenous peoples as Communists as a pretext to slaughter and take their lands away. Your attempt to hijack Native people's struggles, which involve fighting for their lands and ways of life, and label it according to an outsider's perspective, is a little dull by now.
On this point, let me be crystal clear: AIM and all of the Native groups I'm familiar with in this country position their causes within their spiritual traditions. Yes, if you were around AIM back in the day and around Indian people today, you'd see immediately that the bedrock of their "activism" begins and ends with their spirituality. Therefore, to call them Communists despite a fervent clinging to their religious beliefs is utter nonsense. Again, perhaps if you ever get around to seeing Indian Marxist and exchanges, you'll see this as a crucial distinction.
You really are a beyond belief broken record, simply repeating how naughty Marxism is and how it's "controlling" Indian people. How many times do I need to repeat myself that your comfortable little labeling of every movement as either Capitalistic or Marxist does not apply to Native peoples in the way you would like it to. You're a one track kinda guy, I suppose.
Lastly, you don't need to assume the role of wise sage in explaining Christianity to me. I'm quite aware of the religion in all its many guises. Indian people are probably more exposed to it than you've been. Some aspects are good, as as are some individual Christians. Others have been sick and encouraged the near cultural annhilation of Native people. I will say that Christianity in this country has been the Jewish people's best friend, so I can see why you feel a strong fondness for the religion. Many Christians support Israel due to their scheme of Biblical prophecy, others out of an appreciation for the Hebrew Bible and origins of Christianity while others do so out of concern of being labeled as anti-Jewish. So, despite being different religions, American Jews and Israelis have no better friend in the entire world than Christians, with the strongest coming from Evangelical Fundamentalists. Most of those same folks that support your people are monumentally more ambiguous towards Indians.
Ray
Whoops, I meant if you ever get around to seeing Indians and Marxists in dialog, you'd see that the Marxists are not in control of anything.
Ray
Ray
Lets roll this back again. The Black Panthers ran some programs. It does not change that they were essentially a street gang with some Marx added.
AIM may have done some community work. However, its record of supporting pointless Communist insurrection in places like Chiapas also remains a fact. It is entirely illustrating that the group endorses parallel crimes by Communist regimes to those done in the USA in the 1880's. Sorry, but if the crimes in 1880 are bad than allowing Hugo Chavez and Ortega to commit them in the present is just as evil.
I suggest you start reading some of the works of Klehr and Haynes.
Communist front groups continue to plague this country. There are other groups that are just as odious.
Sorry, but when a group claims to represent Indians endorses governments that persecute Indians in the name of Marx it is crystal clear what it is about. I do not make excuses for the crimes of 1880 and I will not except any justification for them in the
present.
I am mildly amused that you feel that labeling a group that supports
Marxists in Chiapas, Daniel Ortega
and Hugo Chavez is unfair. I would
urge you to sit in a social sciences class and decide for yourself which group has stolen the history of Indians. I agree with you 100% Indians should not
be defined as Marxists or Capitalists. Perhaps you should take this argument to a University
near you.
Actually the last part is not surprising. As the success stories abound Marxists would be marginalized in any protracted dealing with Indians. Businessmen and professionals tend to be more respected within communities than bug eyed zealots.
Beakerkin,
I am an innocent Indian and it was tiptoeing thru the tulips.
"you can't see the trees for the forest, or is it vice versa?"
What our ancestors lived thru is our Problems yet they are Not, its our Legacy! We can be Proud of our Past.
You all still speak of us as back in the day, a wooden Indian in the Cubbard!
A lady friend Diane Enos, and Chairman of the Pima Nation cut a deal with the Arizona Diamond Backs and Colorado Rockies to buld a Major league training facility here on Tribal Land and on the Salt River Reservation. How cool is that? Years ago Barry Switzer wanted to build a Super Mall in Lawton Oklahoma, but the Comanche were leary of him(white man and all). I am so proud of the progress of some Tribal Nations, and especially the Reservation Indians. Of course being across the road from scottsdale Arizona doesn't hurt. I am especially proud of Diane being a woman and all. Of course not all business ventures will end up like the Pimas, one comes to mind when Abramhoff(?) tricked the Alabama Coushattas out of millions. But like I said, you guys ar speaking of us as if we are still in the yellow pages being taken across the ocean as slaves. Even Shakespeare disrespected the Native taken for slaves saying "Would not give a doit(a small coin)to a beggar but will lay out ten to see a dead Indian". I wonder...is this why yeagley loves these dusty yellow pages of old??? Of course it is...
Natives are not given the recognition deserved for their ideas stolen from them for the white settlers re-organization and basic rights that these euros saw the Indians living everday and how they cared for the land....not much real recognition is ever given for the fire burning to renew etc, etc, just plain making fun of because we were the first green....
I will follow A.I.M members here in Oklahoma, they are good people. Not Communist or Marxists(whatever that is), but Artists, Business men and Women who give a DAMN and I will follow my 87 year old Aunt to the End as she is an original member of A.I.M. she can do no wrong in my eyes! Not a commy bone in her little body! Like Ray said, there is A.I.M and there is A.I.M. but first and foremost we are Original Americans who love this country more than any other race can. All activities of the American Indian does begin with a prayer and posting the flags, the American flag being the most prominant among our own Nations flags, our ceremony will end with a prayer and retreiving of the colors(Flags).
I am not easily offended by anything said on th Net about Indians, yeagley hardended me to that.
CM
Beak, perhaps you can show how AIM, which is largely defunct today, has come out in rabid support of Hugo Chavez. You're so lost it's really not worth commenting on at this point. I really cannot change what is essentially a religious belief for you at this point: Marxists have hijacked Native history!
Again, Native groups at ANY gathering, no matter the occasion (even on college campuses in front of supposed Marxists) pray before beginning any dialog or community engagement. Now, the fact that AIM is largely gone these days, there are still many different Native North American movements that are primarily concerned with the gov. abiding by its treaty obligations and recognizing Native sovereignty as laid out in these treaties (won through sacrifice). If you can show some sort of Native organization that makes overtures to Chavez and whomever else is on Santa's naughty list, I'd like to see them listed.
Finding a few Indians that try and get involved here and there in worldly affairs may say this or that, but only a non-Indian would absolutize it like you have. Plus, like whiny conservatives are saying these days about supposed "liberal" infiltration into their tea party ranks these days to make them look bad, there is documented proof of FBI and others that did in fact infiltrate parts of AIM and other civil rights movements. Things were and are more complicated than playing a game of Capitalists vs. Marxists.
Indians are not really all that involved in the U.S.'s political system in terms of voting. It's improving recently, but the engagement is primarily local, through tribal government. I hope this improves, however, as it's important to take an active role in the United State's political process nationally.
Have you ever been to something as routine as a pow wow? If not, you may be surprised that a lot of those old "Communist" activists were veterans of WWII, Korea, and Vietnam. Many of them continue to be rightly honored during grand entries. So, with a strong recognition in Native spirituality (whatever the community) and the largest representation per capita in the U.S. armed forces, I'd say the label of Marxist or Communist is disgustingly inappropriate to use when discussing Native people in this country. Like with your own community or any other for that matter, direct and personal engagement with the community is mandatory to even beginning to understand the situation.
Ray
Just because somebody prays or is involved otherwise in "Native spiritual beliefs" does not in and of itself exclude them from being adherents to or participants in Marxist ideology.
About the most obvious example of this I can think of is Hugo Chavez himself, who never misses an opportunity to point to Christ as an example of an advocate for social justice and change. So religion is an irrelevant point.
Personally, I would like to see the Black Hills returned to the Sioux. Let them do whatever the hell they want to do with Mount Rushmore. If they are offended by the images of white US Presidents on their sacred land, let them blast their visages off the mountains. Or if they would prefer, maybe they can come up with an artistic way of changing the images to Indian ones, whoever they think is appropriate. I don't know, maybe change Thomas Jefferson to Sitting Bull and Teddy Roosevelt to Crazy Horse. I couldn't care less.
Beak is correct though when he talks about how Marxists make the attempt to hijack Indian issues to their own ends. I have seen it out of the horse's hoofs, so to speak, on the Internet.
There is one individual in particular, whom Beak likes to refer to as the "Marijuana Marxist" and as "Graemeful Dead", who does this on a fairly frequent basis while bashing all who devote their time and resources as Christians to helping Indian populations with food, clothing, medicine, housing, and education.
I don't dispute that many of these folks might be doing these kinds of thing for the wrong reasons and often times with ulterior motives in mind, and oftentimes there might be unintended consequences (and perhaps in some cases not so unintended) but the point is that Graeme tends to paint them all with the same broad brush.
Of course I like to point out whenever I get the chance that Beak used to think rather highly of Graeme, whom he used to refer to as a young man with a good heart but dreadful ideas. Beak always has to have a token Marxist to point to as "one of the good ones" until that person does something to piss him off (which makes me wonder when Ducky's time is coming). But the point there would be that this is an issue that Beak evidently takes seriously enough to look into the matter, and if he think AIM is a communist front group, I am inclined to believe he has a good reason.
Besides, an organization that spends such a large amount of time and resources advocating against sports teams and mascots has to be kind of loopy.
PT
The Duck and I have been going at it
for well over five years. There is back and forth but we know each others limits. The Duck unlike a Ren
is a rounded individual. The latter is a cartoon with an amusing social life. That is not a remark about his involvement with wrestling.
I would add that past military service does not ensure your head is in the right place. Charlie Rangel served in Korea and spent most of his life serving Castro, Ortega when not counting cash. Gomer Kerry spend 3 months in Vietnam and the rest of his life aiding communists.
I would add that Ray and I agree on a point. Lets keep the culture and history of Indians above the fray. Kindly remind your peers to stay local and stop aiding Marxists nuts in Chiapas.Let those loonies do so independent of the community. I have this same fight when impostors claim they are the
authentic voice of the Jewish community.
Pagan, I'd wager that you have zero familiarity in being around Native people, and as a consequence, really have never participated in ceremony. I don't mean that as a slam, just strong intuition on my part. The problem here is not that you aren't descent enough guys, it's that you folks really have absolutely zero engagement with Indian communities. Without those ties on a regular basis, you're lost as to how the communities work. Having never been around Native gatherings and ceremonies, you simply find a known socialist who prays to Jesus as some sort of a rebuff. It's wrong to the core, but again, with zero real engagement of Indian issues and people, left only with political assumptions, I can see why you said what you did.
Much of what I've laid out in tortorously long postings is simply ignored in favor of subsuming this issue so that it accords with your comfortable little view of the world--Commies run Native people's affairs. And, "Pagen," there are a lot of non's that do wind up co-opting Naive spirituality or become experts by reading books. I certainly wouldn't say I'm an expert either. I do know a hell of a lot more than the non's here, however. Most whites that attempt Wicca, Asatru, or any other supposed pre-Christian practices from Europe, usually wind up co-opting or trying to "get in" with a bunch of Indians at some point as well.
Hell, some are actually allowed to participate for one reason or another, only to become experts from one or two experiences. Like with Judaism, there is not the emphasis on trying to make converts. Marxists and Capitalists do this and many do appropriate native religions for their own selfish wants and needs. It doesn't mean that Indians are powerless to stop it or aren't aware of it. Plastic shamanism is what I've heard it referred to as.
I suppose the only true thing Yeagley said, ever, was that the Indians of this country are the most misunderstood group. Neither the far left nor professed conservatives grasp their difference, both legally and culturally. It's pretty much a futile thing at this point to continue this discussion on a message board.
CM, if you read this, I'd encourage you to stop trying to convince these folks. When you're dealing with a particular religious view of the world and of reality, it's impossible to change those beliefs, especially on a message board. You'd simply be wasting hours of explanation about something no one here is familiar with nor interested in learning about in such a way that it might change their mind. It's funny, as this sorta reminds me of why the feds wanted to dissolve reservations and slowly force Indians to assimilate again after WWII. One huge reason was put forth by Senator Arthur Watkins of Utah, who rallied the gov. to see the continuance of Indian tribes as, you guessed it, a communist stain that needed to be eradicated. Here that, buddy. Before the civil rights era and its many instances of activism, Indians were already being called out as communists simply for wanting to retain what little they had left. So, Beak, you have ample pedigree in your views that there's just something communist about Indian people and their communities.
Ray
Ray
The alliance between AIM and the Black Panthers remains a fact. The abuse of Indian history and culture by Marxists in America is a fact.
You seem to not be hearing the point said many times. Let Indians be themselves without outsiders mixing in their affairs. My kind has neither the interest nor inclination to do so.
You do not see moderates or Conservatives discussing Indian issues. You will see some historic posts from my readings, but that is about the extent. I wish you would remind Marxists who are mainly non-Indians to stop abusing
Native American history and culture
and advocating pointless death.
As far as political activism and Indians this is fine. Most politics is pretty much local anyway and every community should
take part in the process.
Moving ahead to the future, long term the business and professional
groups will reclaim the history and culture anyway. Preserving the culture and funding social welfare
programs for tribal members will come from the business ventures.
As more Indians work in successful
ventures those who are on the far left fringes will be irrelevant.
As many of the businesses involve
tourism over the top hateful political activism is bad for business. Yes plenty of goofy people exploit traditional ceremonies for their own end.
Culture is not nor should it ever be a stagnant thing. Earlier Indians changed with the times and added horses and new crops into their lives. The fact that they lived as hunter gathers did not obscure the role of trade.
When you talk of traditional crafts, ceremonies and lore remember that nothing was written
in stone. Survival required hard work and adaptability. Preserving
history and culture is a laudable task.
PT
I was surprised to find some European Teams with Jewish Mascots.
I am joining the Yid Army.
Ray-
I never claimed to be an expert on Indian history and culture, nor did I ever express that those who retain their own native spiritual traditions are "communist". I don't know where you pulled that from, but that sounds like what you are implying that's what I said. That is far from the case. My only point is that religious belief and expression does not preclude one from being a communist, therefore your point that many folks at AIM hold to a traditional Indian view of spirituality and thus could not be communist is a bogus point.
For that matter, it is possible and even plausible that a person could be a hard-line atheist and still be a dyed-in-the-wool, red-white-and-blue conservative, libertarian, capitalist American patriot. I suspect the same would hold true with Indians.
I could actually point you in the direction of folks who are atheists, or who are gay, yet who are also conservative, patriotic Americans.
If gays or atheists can be conservative, leftists can certainly be religious. My views are AIM is at least Leftist, if not outright communist. If I were to discover that some of them are traditional Christians, while I might be surprised, my view of them as leftists would not change.
Beak-
The Yid Army sounds like the way to go. Maybe I should take my cue from the leftist AIM and object to the "Fighting Irish". Notre Dame's mascot is an obvious "insult" to people of Irish descent, and they need to cut it out.
PT
When I was growing up I always wanted a Jewish sports mascot. We never had the fighting Irish and Yeshiva Universities teams are dreadful.
A running joke in my office was about the Oklahoma Sooner merchandise in my office. A very nice lawyer who was born in Texas asked me if I went to Oklahoma University. I told her that there are really no local College teams with a decent college football team
and the letters OU mean something special to Jews in NYC. She apparently was Jewish and understood that OU stands for Orthodox Union and is marked on products that are Kosher and are permissible for Jews to eat. Actually many Muslims in NYC are well aware of that marking and look to buy products that are OK for them to eat as well.
Ray
The fact that sometimes people in AIM advocate policies that are pro Communist does not infer every person in the group is a Communist. The group did form alliances with the Black Panthers
and rebels in Chiapas.
Yeagley has stated the groups are now more or less independent of each other. I understand that for you and many others the work done
on the local level are important and praiseworthy.
This is the real tragedy of front groups. The local work is somewhat colored by a series of odious associations.
I have never claimed to be an expert on Indian history. That being said Conservatives and moderates do not ever attempt to steal the history and culture of Native Americans. Moreover, given the treatment of indigenous people
by Communists this is quite abhorent.
My point agrees with yours. Let Indians be Indians and the left needs to stop defining Indians in their terms.
My complaint is with the academic
left, not the tribes. Indians with one glaring exception ( Batty Ann)
can manage their own affairs quite
well without others adding their two cents.
In all my time on Bad Eagle you will note I did not venture into
the Native American sections. I will contrast this with everyone being on the Jewish forum.
The blame for Jews being front and center in everything belongs to Commies who need populist Jew hatred to be relevant. Do note fake Indian Ward Churchill has a need to speak volumes about Israel
as typical of communists.
A Jew looks at communists in the same manner as a Black man looks at the KKK.
LaRaza is a good example of that. Go to their website, and more often than not, half the postings on their front page will be outright antisemitic claptrap, anti-Israel this, the evil Mossad that. This is an organization that is supposed to be advocates for Mexican immigrants (legal or otherwise) and Mexican Americans. Why do they devote so much of their web page to anti-Israeli issues? The answer, of course, is they are leftist scum and communist hacks, using Mexican immigrant advocacy as a front and the as you call it "evil Joooo" hatred as a rallying point.
I used to have them linked on my sidebar, just as a reference point, so I and others who might be interested could go to their web page and see what they were up to. After the last time I went to their site I decided enough was enough and removed their link.
I used to be a lot more moderate than I am now, in fact I used to pride myself on trying to stay above the fray and working to unite people across barriers with common bonds, and all that horseshit. My patience is at an end with these sons of bitches. On a good day I might bring myself to recognize a common humanity with them, but more and more I'm starting to see that as not actually a good day, but a weak day. Screw them.
If they want to rail about how racist and divisive tea-partiers are, maybe they should go back to the last eight years of their Bu$Hitler rantings as a reference point.
PT,
Anti-Semitism is a leftist's mating call.
I had such a wonderful week vacation in Phoenix. Our last nite we were treated at an Oriental restaurant, a favorite gathering place Indian people for years, it is 80 yrs.
While we were sitting visiting three different Indian families came in and greeted our friends and my sister who used to live in Phoenix and work on the Salt River Reservation. Now these people are Rez Indians yet they are well intergrated into the civilized world. I don't understand why people can't realize and get over the fact that Indians are People......
Of course it could be the fact that we want our cake and eat it too! We want to hold on to what land we still have.....and of course our Traditions and don't forget the Casinos!
The Navahos were the last hold outs, but you should see their first one on interstate 40 its called Fire Rock, its a beauty, and for those that love to people watch other Nations, that is the place. I love other Indian People, and like I said I am Proud as punch to see them thrive, I never thought the Proud Navaho would really open a casino, Elders in their traditional dress sitting at the one arm bandit(I thought they were all gone, but they had them) reminded me of my own Mom, she loved to gamble!
Took me two days at home to get rested /caught up on the news.
Like I said before about the Indians, we live for the weekends, we can go back in time if we choose, but during the week we are all just like all other races, work, bills, yard work, etc,etc.
Yet, I think Ray you are correct...no one is really interested in the Truth about Indians and their Progress nor digressive plights of the horrid conditions of some of the reservations such as the sioux, they just got to help themselves is all it boils down to.
CM
CM
Actually America is receptive to hearing the message of Indians. The message needs to be genuine and not filtered through the prism of far left cultists.
Ray talks of authenticity and he points out the some Christians did not respect traditions and over stepped their bounds. However, many other dedicated their lives selflessly towards communities they
loved without seeking power.
The concepts of Marx and the far left are also alien. Unlike the Christians these advocates are purely political. They have their own agendas and are using the communities for power.
The basic far left mantra is divide and conquer.
Any group is far better saying this is who we are. We are a vibrant living people. These are your promises and you need to live up to them.
A living breathing vibrant culture
is far better than being used by opportunists.
“Everything is determined…by forces over which we have no control. It is determined for the insect as well as for the star. Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust—we all dance to a mysterious tune, intoned in the distance by an invisible piper.”
—Albert Einstein
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