I do want to touch upon some history for a second. With the exception of the Oneida and some Tuscaroras the Iroquois found themselves involved on the wrong side of a war. The colonialists wanted the Indians to stay out of the American Revolution. Joseph Brandt, a lackey of a prominent powerfully connected English family, for opportunistic reasons led the rest of the tribes against the colonists. The Indians frequently committed atrocities against the rebels and the crown used these atrocities in a manner similar to the way terrorism is used to intimidate its victims. Of course as in the celebrated case of Jane McRae the idea back fired. Brandt was nowhere near the scene of this crime and the victim was betrothed to a loyalist officer the episode almost led to a clash of Indians and Loyalists. Some of the Loyalists deserted after this incident and the Colonials used this atrocity to get enlistments.
After the war Brandt deservedly was stripped of his possessions and moved his people to Canada
where he is revered as a hero. The fact that his efforts caused his people to lose their lands or that he was a mercenary lackey of a prominent family is lost in the discussion.
In this specific case the UK should permit the descendants of people they screwed to enter the UK on tribal passports. The unique history of this particular group of Indians and the UK warrants an exception,
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28 comments:
Awmegawd Beak! Yeagley doesn't know his arse from his elbow and diddly squat about Indians, so what else is new. He is reduced to talking to himself at his blog because nobody but you gives an aviating fornication for him and what he says. And it was YOU who insisted that you didn't want him discussed at your blog anymore. Why revoke such a wise decision? That is a rhetoric question.
You had to be there.
In reality, the Revolutionary War has little to nothing to do with this particular issue, which pertains to issues of tribal sovereignty. Whether one wishes to agree or not, the law of the land is that federally recognized tribes possess quasi-sovereign status. Most are not under state jurisdiction. The fact that the U.S. is okay with these passports and Great Britain is not, is disgusting. Yeagley is absolutely right to compare England's fascination with scum-of the earth monsters, whose religion is a plague of worthlessness and dehumanization, from the Middle East, who can do and say no wrong, and the Iroquois being given a hard time. Perhaps if the Iroquois began screaming "death to the West" and bombing everything in sight, Great Britain would welcome them with open arms.
During the Revolutionary era, the Iroquois Confederacy was caught between two hells. Rather than seeing them in terms of "good guys" for supporting the colonists or "bad guys" for supporting the Crown, it's better to see them and other tribes of that time and place as fighting their own wars of independence. They had no choice but to try and eek out their own freedom by playing these two groups off one another. Neutrality was impossible. On the one hand, you had rabid, pathological encroachment into Indian lands by colonists, colonists who despised Indians. On the other hand, the Crown was promising tribes that if they helped defeat the rebels, they would stop colonial migration West of the Appalachean Mt. (Proclamation Line).
Of course land speculators like George Washington literally saw red at this. The proclamation line is one of the neglected pieces of legislation that caused the colonists to go to war against the Crown. So, in essence, with colonists never ceasing their flood into Indian lands, the Iroquois really had no choice but to go with the lesser of two evils. The important thing is that they had their own agenda, which was survival. One should not categorize Native people according to one's own predilections. They were the ones invaded, Beak, not the other way around. The colonists get no sympathy for "atrocities" committed against them.
Ray
I just went there and had a look. Gosh, he doesn't even get the brand name of those trainers, containing a whopping number of 4 (FOUR) letters, right. FORGET HIM!
Beak, that Brandt was connected to prominent English officials cannot be denied. That connection helped shape his intention to side the Iroquois with the British in the Revolution and that cannot be denied.
However, the Indians as a whole were finding themselves between the proverbial rock and a hard place. The colonists were already pushing onto Indian land and there had been some conflicts. Brandt and the other leaders undoubtedly felt they would get a better deal in keeping their homes from the British than from the Americans.
History has shown that Indians who sided with the US in its conflicts were just as dispossessed of their lands and forced into acculturation as much as those who actively resisted the US by military means. It pains me to say that about our country, but our treatment of Indians is not one of our shining chapters of history.
Of course, the Iroquois fared little better under the British. Currently there is a lot of resentment, anger and angst in Upper Canada today which has its roots going back to the end of the Revolution.
Sometimes we must look at history not so much as a clash of nations, but as a clash of cultures. That's why the Indians were virtually in a lose/lose situation no matter who they went with. European culture from one side or the other was going overwhelm them.
Ray
It is impossible to absolve Brandt and the UK for the history. Brandt was a lackey and the British used the Indians.
The UK owes Brandt's descendants who they used respect. These are literally the descendants of people who fought for and lost all for the crown, unless they were Oneida.
Gator
We agree on much. However, the UK should honor the descendants of people who fought for the crown.
Where is the respect.
Joseph Brandt was quite likely the illegitimate son of Her Majesty's Indian Representative in the colonies, Sir William Johnson. The Brants were "landscammers" from the days of Queen Anne and the Four Kings (Hendrick, Brant, et al). They were actually DUTCH who took up tepee living and became "Indian Kings". The paintings are frauds, and so was Brant, who was an Englishman in Indian garb.
When Brant went to England, he dressed up in English garb and pretended to be "Sir Guy".
The British are up to their necks in faux Indians.
...as were the "Americans"
Sir William Johnson's Coat of Arms...
Talk about a man with "imperial" ambitions. His legitimate son, Sir John Johnson (Brant's likely half-brother) commanded the British regulars.
"Gator
We agree on much. However, the UK should honor the descendants of people who fought for the crown."
I agree Beak and I've said that about GB before. Would it really kill the Brits to recongize the Iroquois as a soveriegn people, let them have their land and issue a passport as a subset of the British passport? My gosh, they're kowtowing to Muslims who have done nothing for the Crown while Indians in Canada who were loyal still get the shaft. Of course, the Brits have had practice with the Scots for 300 years.
I've been preached to a couple of times by Europeans about how we Americans treated Indians. It's amusing because their facts are frequently Hollywood based and they don't know a quarter of the REALLY egregious stuff that I know about.
As you point out, Great Britain doesn't have a sterling record, neither does France, Spain, Holland, Russia, Portugal (am I missing anyone?) They all had their turns with Indian peoples at various times. The USA was just last in line.
Ray - I see we again were thinking along the same lines.
The Cherokee didn't fair very well after the revolutionary war either. The Chickamauga band decided to support the British, and as a consequence, the whole Nation was punished including raids and confiscation of lands and property.
'gator sez: "As you point out, Great Britain doesn't have a sterling record, neither does France, Spain, Holland, Russia, Portugal (am I missing anyone?)"
Germans?
"(am I missing anyone?)"
Belgium, Japan, China, and especially Arabs.
Also Turkey, Italy, and Austria.
There too much more to the world than a simplistic and resentful moralist's perspective.
There are no innocent autochthonous people. None. Nowhere.
Life itself requires the destruction and consumption of other life forms... there's no getting around it. An aversion to cannibalism is merely a rather limited and specialized aesthetic perspective, and in the case of an abortion infected West, a rather hypocritical one at that.
Editrix, I was thinking in terms of colonial powers, exercising dominion over some part of North or South America. Now there were a few enclaves of German settlers who ended up at odds with the local Indian nations. However, these Germans (along with Swedes and Norwegians etc.) were mostly under American governance and I was inclined not to count them as a separate group. The biggest waves of German settlers came into areas that had been cleared of Indians a decade or so earlier.
Hello all,
I have been reading B.E. and Here, of all missleading and vearing(as usual)off course of the American Indian, It made me wonder:
What would our world be like if we stop thinking and judging in terms of Color? If that is not possible, what if, From birth teach that "Black" and "Brown" is a positive, a thing of Beauty, Peace, Love, Truth, Kindness and Warmth to hold in your arms like a sweet smelling Brown or Black baby!
Many of us of Color know these things to be true of our People.
What if "White" was negatively taught from birth that it is Jealous, Dangerous, Harsh, Envy, Ugly, Arrogant, Lies, full of hate and coldness, a ice cold little white baby, not sweet smelling!
Harsh?????Lets find a way to stop it the negativeness or just stop speaking of Indians altogether, this goes especially to yeagley who ultimately ends his remarks of the American Indian with a negative remark, never positive.
Think about it...even today this is what is happening with our young children. We as adults are teaching these negatives to our babies. Yeagly knows nothing about Indians. His usual entrapment with his Healines of "Indian This or Indian That" is getting a little boring even to his most avid enemy.....me!!!!
Gator wrote, "Ray - I see we again were thinking along the same lines."
While I am far from being "Mr. Authority" on Native matters and history and the colonial encounter with European peoples, I've yet to come across anything I disagree with you about, Gator! You're far more even tempered than I tend to be at times here, too. I hope all's well in your neck of the woods.
Ray
So CM, I have read your words before, but I don't believe I have spoken to you unless you posted under another name, (other than Comanche Moon,) at BE.
If I may, how do you think of yourself?
I am Warren the American, always.
When I post I am Warren/Longrange. I am not Warren the Indian nor am I Warren the the mixed breed or Warren the White Man.
I am Warren the product of my upbringing. I don't think of myself in terms of blood quantum and race doesn't mean anything to me unless someone else has no identity without the amount and color of melanin in their skin.
Such things invite grievance and obsession about that which is unchangeable history.
Each "individual" person is a thing of beauty so look in your heart and tell me who you are.
Warren the American, you are who you are!
My words are not of grievance and obsessions I merely point out that everyone has an opinion of the Native American Indian.
I read and comment once in a while. My Heart bleeds RED, I think, I can cry tears of joy and sadness. All that I am and All that I'll ever be is a full Blood Native American, if I die tomorrow, I'll die Comanche, some people just can't accept that we are a Proud Culture, we are different, just saying it makes others see red.....sorry!
A friend gave me a nice horse pendant, its' card said "Free spirit riding in the wind, set my soul free. Free to do all that I can do and be all that I can be. Free to relax, to laugh, and to toss aside all strife. To reach out and touch the excitement of life." This closely describes me in a Free America, but its closing in on us, maybe just like the toll gates on the turn pikes, America won't be Free much longer.
Just commenting can set you free of strife. All I see is people describing the ways of the Native Peoples, not really knowing us at all...thats all I meant!
Fair enough, CM.
The reason I ask is, some see grievance and hatred, a reflection of their own soul, which they blame on others. Among the Native Peoples, some still dance the Ghost Dance.
Personal prejudice will always be with us. Its a sign of poor upbringing and low intelligence.
Most non-Indians have a higher opinion of Indians than you realize. If they don't understand you its only because of the myths of Hollywood.
"Personal prejudice will always be with us. Its a sign of poor upbringing and low intelligence."
I don't believe that statement. Seems like some of the most Christian raised people are the most prejudiced, some of those claiming four degrees or more are the most prejudiced. They would have to have some intelligence to garnish even one.
For the most part Indians are laid back Christians acceptance of any others beliefs, while keeping their Historical Spiritual beliefs. Around Comanche Land you can find a Peyote Prayer meeting going on almost any weekend, they are not publicized.
I know that non-Indians have a high opinion of us, thats why they are so engrossed with our past History, thats why yeagley can use "US" to his advantage to draw in the white viewers. He doesn't keep them long however, because of his own opinions and beliefs and prejudices he spouts against his own people. Thats my opinion of what I read from his site, and how many degrees does he have, yet brain dead to common sense!
Yet, low-life are hording to the reservations, foreign low-life and American low-life, fornicating with drunk and drugged Indian women, and making babies--for which they care nothing.* Dr. Yeagley ------- These are the words of a self proclaimed breed injun who aint had no sex, phd in music and dogma. yet is a expert at Bullshyt, and with a co-HOrt of baffoons and loons, well this words do say alot about a person thus yall decide and that is the point--XXXX the shadow and Beak Shalom
FYI for the history buffs IT does matter or the examples of how the gringo(euro for the dense), came, took, lied about everything and IT stills goes on TODAY, Yet all the palaver and or debate is good, as in not the bullshyt jackboot bigot bullshyt of breeds who think they alone are right, yep along with the KKK, la raza, ayaran, gangs, etc etc get a fyucking grip the house is coming down and all the pizzing and moaning, while the govt entrenched azzclowns sell this nation to the shythouse, but WTF some want to talk shyt about how they are americans and that pie in the sky ideals, ok if the damn old gringo dudes with their all are equal blah blah, ok DO IT apply IT to ALL, and the ones who pizz and moan how the great white race is this or not, well OK ALL(humans for the dense) are born and ALL will DIE what the hell, or best not forget that 'our amigos' china, russia, and other all want what, to see this nation kill IT self, or the ones with agendas ie the muslims, the christians, blah blah DOGMA, I will side with Beak( JEW) always and I will side with my friend Amil(iranian) why due to We share one thing in common We Love this Nation and for the not so bright folks or the ones who will check my writing fyuck Yall I did my time in the NAM and LOST my Son in these latest WARS so if yall want to judge go ahead and like the duo of lunacy who talk all them pretty words and say SHYT, why ALL bleed RED and ALL will DIE, so the point is I am INDE not apache not blah blah, I have seen more death and insanity that most of yall gringos, but yall have a better view than two sobs who are part white yet talk like fyucking hitler, Farshytcan, rev wright(breed), or this tell IT to the ones on the WALL and in Arlington, Yo beak SHALOM, and yep It be a senior moment, the shadow
Amen Naiche
The nation has done some horrible things to Native Americans and others. Yet it is part of the trend towards America living up to its ideals. We are a nation of equals and
racists of all types do not grasp what we are.
"Amen Naiche"
I'd say that was Winters pulling off a Naiche.
No....that is my friend Naiche!
He knows what he speaks of, Winters just knows "whats up Doc".
"No....that is my friend Naiche!"
Awmegawd, I apologize!!!
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