I am looking forward to next weeks Independent Christian patriot radio show. Poor Rob and Justin have me perplexed as to who is or is not a Christian.
Dr Yeagley, who has a PHD in theology from Yale explained that Apocrypha refers to Judaic texts that are not accepted in the Bible. The term does not refer to books like the book of Mormon that came later.
I would like to do another spot on the show at some point in the future. I am perplexed at how communists rail against missionaries who devote their lives to the poor. Somehow Christians manage to help the poor each and every day without gulags or forcing people onto collectives.
Everyone stay tuned
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Next week will be interesting, it's going to be a packed show. Me and Justin disagree on the Mormon issue.
funny how christianity got along fine without mormonism until a couple of hundred years ago. wonder what happened to all the "christian" people who died before that?
mormons baptize dead people for crying out loud! you cannot save a dead person and baptism (water, sprinkling, dunkin' - whatever you want to call it) is not necessary for salvation. anyway.
the theief on the cross did not have that benefit and Yeshua said to him, "surely i tell you today, you will see Me in paradise."
Nanc
I do know that many people find Mormonism objectionable. Yet would any of us feel this hostility towards Hindus or people who practice American Indian traditional beliefs.
At some point I will try to the bottom of why people on the left who lecture us about Islamophobia often turn into Linda Blair at the mention of Christianity.
Nanc, we will disagree here.
Mark 16:16,
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Acts 2:38,
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Galatians 3: 26-28,
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Baptism and salvation go hand in hand. Now as far as the Mormons baptizing the dead, thats just weird.
I am intrigued by the parochial nature of people's interest in defining Christianity. It reminds me of the disciples arguing who would be the greatest among them.
But, Jesus answered the question directly as to who is a Christian as recorded in John 13:35, "By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."
I am intrigued by the parochial nature of people's interest in defining Christianity. It reminds me of the disciples arguing who would be the greatest among them.
I forget whose blog I read it on, but to me, it's like "two bald men fighting over a comb."
Funny thing is, I've found that the a lot of people who call themselves Christians are the ones that throw their religion onto people who really don't want to be bothered by it.
I, for one, believe in the Holy spirit; however, I stay away from churches, because they are the very essence of religion, which is man-made. Therefore, since religion is man-made, I avoid it entirely, but yet I still read my Bible, and believe in Jesus as our Holy saviour.
So, with that, I am prepared to hear people tell me I am being blasphemous.
I'm not attacking anyone specific in this blog here. Maybe it's because that a blogger friend of mine was recently harangued by a group that calls themselves Christians who live on her street.
Specifically called Baptists, they abuse the book of Matthew and both physically and mentally abuse their children, feeling that the Book of Matthew gives them the right to do so. I decided a long time ago that I would turn in child abusers to the authorities. I did this back in 1999. The boys were beaten daily by their father because they stepped out of line by watching something on television not approved by dad, or something silly like saying a bad word.
That's the sort I dislike. Again, no personal attacks meant toward anyone in here, but it's this seemingly devout Baptist cult who takes practice in beating their kids, making them turn into future Jeffrey Dahmers that tend to give Christianity a bad name - even give a bad liking to conservatism as a whole, aka, right wing christian fundamentalists. When religion is tied in with politics, we have a plethora of nothing but bad news for right-wingers, but that's another story.
I won't comment on Mormons for two reasons: 1. I have a close friend who is a Mormon, and 2. I really don't know much all about Mormonism to begin with, except that they do believe in Christ.
So, in other words, if you believe in Christ - but don't follow the edict of another Christian sect - does that make Mormons bad people?
Someone please post the number to call in, and also the link where I can hear this broadcast. Thanks.
CB
I agree with you.
Steve
There is a link to Rob on the right and the call in number is at their site. TMW is a frequent guest as is AOW. I am only there for comic purposes.
So, in other words, if you believe in Christ - but don't follow the edict of another Christian sect - does that make Mormons bad people?
No, I don't think Mormons are bad people, I just disagree with them Theologically, as I do other Christians. I will have a guest in the second part of the show, who is a Ex-Mormon, who says that Mormonism is a Cult, we will find out from him, why it is, as I'm sure he will have good insight into why.
I'll try and listen in on this one, maybe even call in. Of course this all depends on my schedule, so...thanks for clearing this up, and also to Robert for taking the time to email and explain his position as well.
mormonism is considered a cult within the realm of christianity for so many reasons.
cannot wait to see if beamish weighs in on this one.
rob - the thief on the cross was not baptized. paul had great sorrow after the baptisms he performed.
in the early days of christianity, the Word was preached to the jew FIRST and ordered later to be preached to the nations. to be baptized in water was specifically meant for early jewish believers - it's not necessary for salvation.
a little about baptism (and i don't know alot), it was originally used as a type of cleansing - the recipient was not to be touched by the rabbi or baptizer at all.
the water used in these rituals MUST be from living water - a river, stream, creek or lake - NEVER running water.
baptism will not change a person's heart, it is a result of a changed heart.
footnote
i just believe from bible text and some commentary, if we are not keeping the entire "law", any portion we do keep is null and void.
p.s. beak - it is better to be narrowminded on the side of truth than broadminded on the side of a lie.
one little lie in a person's faith negates the entire truth.
it's like discovering some money missing from your wallet only to find one of your children took it - and their excuse for taking it is, "it was only a dollar!"
well, jeepers - i guess you can't really call that stealing now, could you? i mean, after all - it wasn't a ten or a twenty!
and no, that has never happened at our house, it's just a word photo i made up.
Nanc it is an excellent radio shop.
Maybe I will guilt Rob into doing a show on cults? Poor Justin deserves better than this.
Nanc, I will put it this way,
If it was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me.
I see baptism as the outward sign of a changed heart--a heart which has already accepted the Holy Spirit and salvation. Like any other outward sign, it doesn't guarantee salvation, which comes only through the sacrifice and redemption of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Nanc,
Yes, the thief. Jesus said, "Today, thou art with Me in Paradise."
Yeshua is a jew. i am not.
p.s. i never said mormons are bad people, for the record.
Yes, AOW, I agree with that.
I am baptist and Baptist doctrine which come only from the scripture would never condone child abuse! Those people were just BAD people as there are bad people of every stripe.
Don't lump us all together, please.
It just so happens, Nanc, that I'm currently re-reading "Oh What A Slaughter - Massacres in the American West: 1846 - 1890" by Larry McMurtry. The Mountain Meadows Massacre of September 11th, 1857 figures prominently.
The story of the Mormon massacre of the Fancher party and its quickly unraveling cover-up in southern Utah is just as brutal and malicious as any "battle story" of Muslim raids on caravans recorded in Islamic history.
I'm wondering what the 150th anniversary of the attack will do for scutiny of Mormon theology on September 11th.
150 years ago, Mormons were terrorists following a "prophet."
that's essentially what i stated, rob.
Rob-Go read, "Mama, Mormonism and Me". The author was from a family who were original believers and followers of Joseph Smith. She pulls no punches in her expose of what goes on at the upper levels and what is believed by the higher ups. It is masonry pure and simple and they make no bones about Lucifer being the NATURAL son of god and the FULL BROTHER OF JESUS! Also god had CARNAL relations with Mary to produce Jesus' physical body. Lucifer bacame satan after his plan of salvation was rejected by god and Jesus was accepted!
BTW-The masons exclaimation of, "Have mercy on the widow's son!" goes back to Babylon and the worship of Nimrod, Semirames and her son Tammuz.
The new and low level mormons have NO CLUE that this is what is believed, and the author of the book mentioned above explains the Temple rituals, DO NOT BE FOOLED, it is satanic!
Steve-satan will twist and pervert that which is good into evil. The so called "baptists" that are harrassing Pim are not Christians, they belong to a cult and the whole idea is to discredit real Christians and destroy lives. Smells like burning sulfur to me!
Good morning, G*D bless and Maranatha!
tmw
I plan to tune in to the radio show next week.
Mr. Beamish the Kakistocrat said...
"150 years ago, Mormons were terrorists following a "prophet."
Would this book also cover the massacres of say Wounded Knee, Sand Creek or any of the other massacres that took place? Should one think that those who perpetrated these
massacres "terrorist" or as good people just following the Christian Prophicies of "Manifest Destiny"?
Just wondering how it is that the "Mountain Medows" are used to cast dispersion on a group and a religion today while places like Wounded Knee and Sand Creek are forgiven or even over looked.
Gen. T. Sherman:
"The only good Indian is a dead Indian."
All these incidents were tragic days in American History. If one wants to judge a people today by what has happened in the past then they should stand ready to defend their own peoples actions and be judged for what they did in the past.
Justin-My Father's, mother's great uncle rode with Kit Carson, and he told my grandmother that Kit Carson OFTEN said the same thing.
The animosity cut both ways, horses and govermental support, betcha it was mostly dhimmicrats with that policy, gave the advantage.
At least the cavalry out West, in most cases, did not make it a "religious" war and falsely attribute what was going on to Christ. There were some fanatics who did, and I do not consider them Christian. Hateful people may pull the respectable robe of religion about them, but it is pretty threadbare!
And Joseph Smith was not martyred, he shot and killed a few men in that jail! Not Christ-like.
tmw
BTW-I also have a friend who was Reformed CLDS, he became a Christian along with his whole family and he would tell you that it is a cult!
He's in the Ft. Worth area, and is the assistant pastor of his church. Works for TI.
Nanc,
Sorry if I somehow missed what you was saying, because it seemed as if you were saying, Baptism was null and void, and not needed, or a waste of time. If I did miss what you were saying, my apologies..
sugar plum!
TMW did you know about this part of the whole story you have read regarding Mormons? Were the people he shot, shot in self defense? I guess an angry mob who shoots and kills your brother and are about to kill you should not be dealt with.
A military order signed by Missouri Governor Lilburn W. Boggs on October 27, 1838, directed that the Mormons be driven from the state or exterminated (see Missouri Conflict). Boggs' action was based on information brought to him that day by two citizens of Richmond, Missouri, concerning the Mormon-Missourian conflicts in northwest Missouri and on reports of the Battle of Crooked River, in which armed Mormons had clashed with a company of state militia on October 25.
A copy of the order reached General Samuel D. Lucas of the state militia by the time he encamped outside the LDS town of Far West, in Caldwell County, on October 31. Lucas gave a copy to the LDS Colonel George M. Hinkle and other Church representatives, to whom he dictated terms of surrender, and they showed it to Joseph Smith. It was probably a significant factor in the Prophet's decision to surrender to Lucas.
Following Joseph Smith's surrender, arrest, and imprisonment, the governor's order was carried out by a combination of militia troops and vigilantes. It culminated in the forcible removal from Missouri of virtually all members of the Church during the winter and early spring of 1838-1839.
Joseph Smith's mother, Lucy Mack Smith, summarized the account as follows:
"My sons were thrown into jail, where they remained in company with Brothers Richards, Taylor and Markham. At the end of this time, the Governor disbanded most of the men, but left a guard of eight of our bitterest enemies over the jail, and sixty more of the same character about a hundred yards distant. He then came into Nauvoo with a guard of fifty or sixty men, made a short speech, and returned immediately. During his absence from Carthage, the guard rushed Brother Markham out of the place at the point of the bayonet. Soon after this two hundred of those discharged in the morning rushed into Carthage, armed and painted black, red and yellow, and in ten minutes fled again, leaving my sons' murdered and mangled corpses!"
I guess its just who is writing History as to how it is told.
rob - i guess if you don't get baptized in living water, as it states it should be done, then, essentially, yes it is null and void.
my point was that it is not necessary to salvatian.
*:]
i'm at work, btw, beak...
The Living Water is Jesus Christ, thats why we Baptize in Jesus name.
Besides dosen't all water, come from Lakes and rivers and Oceans? I guess the pipe is what makes it evil, huh?
=P
Wasn't Jesus baptized in a River? Is his baptizm null and void than?
living water is lake, stream, river, creek water - NO HIS baptism is not null and void - did you read the link i left above?
i just happen to believe people abuse baptism - that's all.
We just disagree on this one Nanc, but thats nothing new!
haha!
Much love sugar plum!
Beak:
As you can surmise from all the different posts no two Christians even agree on what it takes to be a Christian. It truely is as George Bernard Shaw said.
"No man ever believes that the Bible means what it says: He is always convinced that it says what he means."
When I left the Catholic Church I embarked on a study of the different religions and their beliefs. Unlike most of my contemporaries I did not just accept what I read or heard about different religions. I went to the source itself and studied it.
The upcoming program will be very interesting since I studied the Mormon religion for two years with 4 of their elders and the President of their Stake. I had them in my home every Thursday night for dinner and discussion and I attended their sunday school and main services during this time. I found them to be open and honest and respectful of my beliefs at all times. They never once berated my beliefs or questioned my salvation.
While I admitted to them then and admit now I could never accept the book of Mormon as written by Joseph Smith I did however, find their belief in Jesus and G*d to be genuine, sincere and their Christianity not something I would call into question.
I did find their belief in the Celestial,Tealestial and Terrestial worlds to be a bit odd but, not unlike the Catholic belief of Heaven, Hell and Purgatory.
Their belief in Joseph Smith as Their Prophet is not so far removed from the same beliefs espoused by many of the early Pentacostal and Apostolic movements which were Prophet based.
All Christian religions have a hiarchial base that writes their Covenants, Doctrines and Articles of Faith whether they be by a Prophet or a Committies.
I studied their 13 Articles of Faith and found them to be anchored strongly in early Christian Beliefs. They had no deep dark hidden seceret cultic beliefs that I would only learn if I joined them. Their religion and its beliefs are open to anyone.
I truely hope all those who listen to this weeks Program will do so with a open mind and heart. And those who wish to comment will do so with the intent to learn something and not come with having something to prove or disprove or with the intent demonize our guests religion or his beliefs.
As sad and unfortunate as it is to say, for the most part Christians are the most judgemental and condecending when it comes to other Christians.
They, believe that their way of worship and interpertation of the scripture is the only way and the others are all wrong if it differs from theirs. They will even call into questions a individuals Christianity if it differs from the way they believe.
Beak bro I do hope you are there as I think I can see where this jew boy will need some jewish back up. :)
nanc said:
i just happen to believe people abuse baptism - that's all.
So right you are nanc.
I understand the disagreement but I wish there were not such hostility. I am honestly somewhat troubled by this.
How many of us would feel similar hostility to Hindus or American Indian religion? I would hope none.
On another show I want to go into cults, but not this one.
Cults would make for interesting radio Beak. We will have to see what Rob will say.
Beak I hate to dash your hopes but if you only knew how Hindus and American Indian Religions are viewed in the eyes of Christianity you would dive under the bed with the monsters as it would be safer. :)
Justin
I hope all of us would be enlightened enough to respect a person's right to seek God in their own path as long as it doesn't endanger the lives of others.
I hope all of us would be enlightened enough to respect a person's right to seek God in their own path as long as it doesn't endanger the lives of others.
I do not respect all paths to seek God, there is RIGHT and there is WRONG, one will lead people to salvation through Jesus Christ, the other will lead people to eternal damnation!
right backatcha, cupcake!
all faiths cannot be right, as my little fluffy-bucket brother has stated.
i don't sense any hostility here, beak - was somebody aiming some my way and it missed it?
*;[
beak:
"wide is the way which leads to destruction, but narrow is the gate which leads to everlasting life."
there are NOT many ways to the kingdom - there is only ONE WAY!
Nanc
We agree that all normal faiths have a point of exclusion and thus all can't be right.
However, I would urge respect for religions that are peaceful in nature. Am I harmed by an American Indian worshiping nature or a great woodchuck god? I would urge respect and courtesy even if I felt the religion odd.
i will be civil, but i have NO respect for religions that are peaceful in nature for the sake of that virtue alone.
for one thing, i'm not called to be even tolerant of them.
christians are told to be bold in proclaiming THE WORD, in and out of season.
i am peaceful, but i will not pee down someone's neck while trying to convince them it's raining.
Justin,
The book focuses on those massacres as well. But the Mountain Meadows Massacre is the one the book mainly focuses upon.
Well Mr. B, I cannot say that suprises me in the least. While this was a dark day in American History and in Mormon History and it would be hoped that all would learn just how wrong this and the other massacres were.
There was a very good program on the History channel about this massacre and what led up to it. Both sides had a lot to answer for as to why innocent people were slaughtered.
While I do not believe the Mormon Church ever truthfully answered its part in what happened I do not believe that the Government ever truthfully answered the role it played in it either.
In regards to Indian religions, you must first become aware of the true nature of what they believe. Down here, the religion often is harmful to others. Such as killing new born twins. Not allowing pregnant women to eat meat, gang raping girls on their first meses. Not giving food to the elderly about to die....
All done to appease the spirits.
Just realize all these religions are not simply benign.
Junglemom I do realize the practices you describe are part of the indigenous religion. I certainly do not condone those behaviors. However, if Native Americans want to worship an armadillo without those practices that endanger others it seems harmless enough.
Beak:
I have often asked the Great Woodchuck if a woodchuck could chuck would how much would a woodchuck chuck. But alas I have never gotten any answer. :)
the harm is in where they lead in an eternal perspective, beak.
everyone is desirous of living forever. i believe it is reality. the question is - where?
I hope there really isn't a tribe that reveres the Great Woodchuck. I might end up with half the folks at BE plotting some sort of comedic revenge.
While I think these other religions are false, I do support their right to practice whatever religion they see fit to practice.
Justin,
Have you ever looked into the "Danites" (Joseph Smith's "militia") and the terrorist acts they committed in Missouri leading up to the Extermination Order signed against Mormons in Missouri? Pre-Civil War Mormons were quite the insurrectionists.
There's still offshoot white supremacist assholes in Missouri claiming to be "the tribe of Dan" - holdover remnants of the terrorists that didn't boogie to Utah with Brigham Young 170 years ago.
Mormonism's history of "oppression" is largely self-generated. Propaganda, if you will.
People tend to frown upon being defrauded out of large sums of cash. Often times, they'll draw up charges in a court of law and want to bring you to trial for it. But if you're Joseph Smith and his gang of Wild West Taliban, you're oppressed and need to run to Missouri.
Nanc-I definitely want the "No Smoking" section...
tmw
And the number of women who were young daughters and wives who disappeared, usually into an elders harem!
So Justin, I think there were a lot of righteously angry fathers and husbands. I'm not condoning mob rule, BUT, Joseph Smith was NOT a martyr, except maybe in mohammadin terms.
AND when the mormons were the majority in an area, disappearances of dissenters, murders of families and as I pointed out, the "mysterious" appearance of young married women in elders harems...nope, I will have no truck with that "religion".
I get along fine with the individuals, but I will call them a cult! And Joseph Smith was a very high level mason, as was the founder of the Jehova's witnesses!
tmw
That's true, TMW. The 1830s was fertile ground for various freakazoidal "Christian" personality cults to spring up from - the Mormons, the JWs, the "Christian Science" church, etc.
I don't think membership in the Freemasons was the cause though.
You are correct about the violence brought by the Mormon church. The Mountain Meadows Massacre is the biggest and most infamous massacre committed by them. But not the only massacre committed by them.
Now did I ever say Joseph Smith was a Martyr? No, I dont think I did.
I guess based on the way they are being portrayed here and bringing it in to todays world I would not be wrong in bringing up the American Governments collusion with the Church in order to exterminate and steal the vast tracts of land that belonged to the American Indians.
The Trail of Tears was the biggest massacre commited by the Americans but not the only one. And what was it all about Land Grabs and Greed.
Read the History of the Cherokee see if what the mormons did could stack up to that.
Yes I know there are still white supremicast in MO who claim to be of the tribe of Dan just as there are still white supermicast all over this country using the cover of Christianity to spill their bilge.
I do not condone what the mormons did at Mountain Meadow any more than I condone what the American Government and its people did to the American Indian or the Black Slaves however that was in the past and we are in the here and now.
When one goes dragging up what happened in the past to justify attacking another religion they should look to the history of their own Churches and Governments.
I think before the kettle starts calling the pot black there should be some soul searching. You are judging a people and religion today based on its past. Should we not then judge all peoples and religion on their violent pasts?
You want freedom of religion to worship as you will yet you seem to find it necessary to disparage other religions to try and justify your own.
I agree with Beak no one has a lock on being the true religion and we should learn to respect others because in denying others the right to worship you will soon be over taken and denied your own right.
Mr B and TMW:
First I want to make it clear I am not defending the Mormon Church of the Past and trying to white wash its atrocities. However, I will defend the Church today to its beliefs just as I would you to yours.
However, when people begin to cast dispersion on another religion today based soley on what its past was then they must be ready to bear on their shoulders the guilt of their forefathers,government and so called christian churches that committed atrocities such as slavery, massacre of old men, women and children based soley on geed for land and the others religion.
Yes, there are still assholes as you say running around calling them selves the tribe of Dan and if you think there are not KKKers who attest to be christians running around spouting hatred then you need to pull the blinders off.
The whole thing that seems to be running through this is that deep down some one thinks there is a evil conspiracy by the Mormon Church to take over the country.
Well let me see there is the conspiracy that:
The Jews Rule The Government.
The Freemasons are out to take over the world.
The Bildebergers are really running the world.
And the list goes on.
I agree with Beak as long as some one worships peacably then so be it. It is not up to me to try to run his religion out of town just because I disagree with its founder and those beliefs.
You see when you keep feeding these conspiracies you open the door to persecution of a given people. When you want to change their religion and dictate how they worship then you must remember there will be another entity out there that will eventually put yours on trial and do away with it.
I have seen where they are trying to take over the world because they send their missionaries out to other countries. Well gee me so do the Baptist,Pentacostals,Methodists and just about every other religion you can concieve out there so who is really trying to take over.
I think we better pay a whole lot more attention to Islam which we know is the true enemy of Christianty and Juedasim.
All the enemies of G*D ARE our enemies and a danger!
Good morning, G*D bless and Maranatha!
tmw
BTW-Beaker ther is no hostility, merely frank and lively discussions...as I give Justin a noogie...
and i poke him in the ribs *;0
Justin,
I've got a fair chunk of Cherokee DNA in me, so I'm quite aware of the Democratic Party's first Presidential at-bat swing at destroying the US Constitution and pursuing a policy of racial hatred towards dark-skinned people, the eternally unchanged pillars of the DNC's governing philosophy erected by Andrew Jackson. If a proposed policy initiative doesn't wipe ass with the Constitution and / or bring misery to non-white people, you're never, EVER going to get a Democrat to support it. That's just the way things are. Democrats will not compromise their founding principles.
Which brings me full circle to my next point. What are the founding principles of the Mormon church?
* - If Joseph Smith is a "prophet" and "translator" of ancient works, and the only physical evidence of ancient works Smith allegedly worked with is an Egyptian funerary scroll, and we have this Egyptian funerary scroll that Smith purportedly translated into "The Book of Abraham," and professional Egyptologists have reviewed both the scroll and Smith's "translation" and found absolutely not a damned one thing between the two translated correctly by Smith - was Joseph Smith a bullshit artist and con man?
* - If you think Joseph Smith was a bullshit artist and con man (as many people in Ohio did before he fled criminal charges to Missouri, as he did before when he fled criminal charges in New York for Ohio), you're at least a "Gentile" - a non-Mormon in Mormon parlance. But, Mormons consider Joseph Smith to be a prophet, and further that their hokey religion commands blood atonement (the spilling of blood) from non-believers ("Gentiles") who speak out against Mormonism. If Mormons won't throw out the fraudulent Book of Abraham even though it has been thoroughly debunked as a translation of THE Egyptian scroll it claims to be, what's stopping them from pursuing other tenets of Mormon prophecy, like destroying the US Government, reducing Congress to a grease spot, and killing all non-Mormons?
They retain all these doctrines and prophecies still to this day, maintaining them in books they consider their most sacred texts. Including the verifiably bullshit "Book of Abraham."
If they don't believe in them, why won't they throw them out?
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