tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11044955.post4187772325701786096..comments2024-02-20T21:48:16.978-05:00Comments on The Beak Speaks: The Much hyped Redwine Interviewbeakerkinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06088967209404588378noreply@blogger.comBlogger64125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11044955.post-31678586368122875882007-02-26T16:49:00.000-05:002007-02-26T16:49:00.000-05:00Z, your husband is right. AS for the Calvinists, T...Z, your husband is right. AS for the Calvinists, Transylvania became one of the safe havens for refugees during the Reformation. )Here Germans are Lutherans, Hungarians Calvinists, and Calvinism, here, with its fatalism still can be found )mostly in the villages in its purest form. The Turks were more pragmatic while we (i.e. catholics) and protestants were slaughtering each other in the name of religion. Farmer John, right. But then you can't set a whole country on fire with a match only...WWI basically meant the end of empires here, except the Russian<BR/>one. Nation states came into being in Eastern Europe - late romantic ideals.Agneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14427327588753930703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11044955.post-64007212374066293852007-02-25T00:45:00.000-05:002007-02-25T00:45:00.000-05:00farmer john...WWI's beginning are MUCH more compli...farmer john...WWI's beginning are MUCH more complicated than that....and much more interesting. enjoy the learning....My husband's from Germany and says a lot of that story is much more complicated than what we have been taught.<BR/><BR/>But, of course, he's still whining about Hitler being Austrian, NOT German, and that everyone thinks Beethoven was Austrian (Smile)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11044955.post-67469603555851664752007-02-24T19:42:00.000-05:002007-02-24T19:42:00.000-05:00Of course, given the outbreak of WWI and the scram...Of course, given the outbreak of WWI and the scramble to fill the "power vacuum" in the Balkans, perhaps I'm not giving the British sufficient credit. The way I learned my history, the whole WWI thing was over the assasination of an archduke... but now I can see that it was much more complicated than that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11044955.post-2046624186606377702007-02-24T19:30:00.000-05:002007-02-24T19:30:00.000-05:00We became our own dhimmi-tax collectors... and fai...We became our own dhimmi-tax collectors... and failed to do what was right w/the Armenians just to keep one another from in "check".<BR/><BR/>Somehow I doubt the Russian Black Sea Fleet was a formidable threat...given their <A HREF="http://www.hullwebs.co.uk/content/l-20c/disaster/dogger-bank/voyage-of-dammed.htm" REL="nofollow">performance</A> against the Japanese... the subsequent "Voyage of the Damned".<BR/><BR/>But I could be wrong.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11044955.post-40227334007247468762007-02-23T22:22:00.000-05:002007-02-23T22:22:00.000-05:00farmer john, how do you mean that? I'm interested...farmer john, how do you mean that? I'm interested. <BR/><BR/>thanks!! zAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11044955.post-34210586916516967902007-02-23T20:25:00.000-05:002007-02-23T20:25:00.000-05:00Thank you redwine and z. I learned a bunch! Espe...Thank you redwine and z. I learned a bunch! Especially how own little "internal" power struggles can turn us into our own worst enemies...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11044955.post-14389928842221151852007-02-23T17:48:00.000-05:002007-02-23T17:48:00.000-05:00farmer john, I'm trying not to be too sensitive he...farmer john, I'm trying not to be too sensitive here, but I found that Wikepedia Hamidian account strange. Just to not add "and, of course 1.5 million were killed after the turn of that century" already seems bizarre to me, but perhaps they just stick to that one uprising and that's it..seems dishonest somehow, to me.<BR/><BR/>It's like taking Kristal Nacht, talking about how a thousand Jews died. Period. <BR/><BR/>Yes, Kurds were a HUGE problem to the Armenians. Here, I'd been so sensitive to the Kurds in Iraq until i learned about how they treated Armenians from a documentary my uncle just financed on the genocide!! Well...I guess I still have to be, right? (RIGHT?!)<BR/><BR/>just seemed like this account made it sound like that killing of 140 at the bank (I'd never heard of that) somehow justifed the murder of thousands of Armenians.....<BR/><BR/>well, I guess when your people are massacred, you're sensitive, huh? <BR/><BR/>THanks......it was interesting. zAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11044955.post-92046940361363745882007-02-23T17:41:00.000-05:002007-02-23T17:41:00.000-05:00I've lived in Paris for four years, and Germany (m...I've lived in Paris for four years, and Germany (mostly Munich) for one......the Muslim problem/immigration, is far worse than "worrying", Redwine...but the Germans are getting a handle on it BIG TIME. The French? If Sarkozy wins, they might stand a chance, except Muslims have promised to start killing Frenchmen on the streets if Sarkozy is elected. <BR/><BR/>I'm not too into blog debates about the genocide...I refer to it as 'near genocide', by the way...for the very fact that I AM HERE. Just what I need to hear is a young "turkish nutter". But thanks for the information. I just can't bring myself to read that stuff anymore.<BR/><BR/>Redwine, are you saying CALVINISTS can be "worse than 10 Turks in one place?" Please explain.<BR/><BR/>farmer john: You're right about the Med....Turkey's geography is why OUR senate refuses to force them to acknowledge the near genocide, too. It's up for vote now, I hear...again. Dole used to bring it up all the time because the doc who saved his arm was Armenian.<BR/><BR/>personally? I could care LESS if they ever actually admit it. It's not bringing any ancestors back, believe me. ANd, as I'd said before, it'll get them more into Europe..GOD FORBID. They have a lot of political capital being where they are.....Let them continue to look bad because of their denial. I love it.<BR/><BR/><BR/>zAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11044955.post-83047541804814628662007-02-23T17:12:00.000-05:002007-02-23T17:12:00.000-05:00The "problem" with the patriarch's statement was i...The "problem" with the patriarch's statement was its' timing (April of 1878). The British were NOT going to let the Russian Black Sea fleet get any closer to their personal lake (the Med), and at that time literally the only thing standing between the Russians and the Med was Ottoman Constantinople and the British fleet (and the Brits damn well didn't Russia to gain another new land corrider through Armenia/ Celicia either... THAT would have paralleled the recently executed Russian pretext for the Romanian liberation). The Brits were backing the Turks in this "Balance of Powers" argument and so the patriarch's statement to the Brits fell on deaf ears. <BR/><BR/>The "other" problem was that Russians may have been the so-called "protectors" of Armenia on paper (by treaty of San Stefano March '78), they weren't in a strong position to enforce it (most Russian gains rolled back under the Treaty of Berlin in July of '78) yet the Russians were encouraging a revolt (kinda like Bush '41's encouragement of the Shi'a and Kurds to overthrow Saddam in '91). <BR/><BR/>And thirdly... the Turks were "weakened" and therefore in the politically weak position of having to over-react to any perceived Armenian threat of Independence to Ottoman power. <BR/><BR/>So perhaps it was "provocative" at the time, but not necessarily wrong or unwarranted. The Armenian <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sasun_Resistance_%281894%29" REL="nofollow">Sasun Resistance</A> of 1894 was subsequently followed up by the <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamidian_massacres" REL="nofollow">Hamidian Massacres</A> of 1895-7.<BR/><BR/>Interesting history.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11044955.post-41039709554984686352007-02-23T14:53:00.000-05:002007-02-23T14:53:00.000-05:00"to degrade with the continuous identification of ..."to degrade with the continuous identification of the religious creed with ethnic nationality" - exactly. <BR/><BR/>The cuyus regio eius religio was the dominant principle, i.e. ethnicity mattered little, religion everything.<BR/>(Transylvania was one of the Protestant-Catholic battlegrounds, and the was among the first states to grant asylum to huguenottes for instance.) Nationalisms and nation states came into being much later: they can be considered a product of Romanticism. That process (natural otherwise) took place much later in the Ottoman Empire. 9The ottomans were more tolerant in the beginning: Jews for example were granted rights they did not have before. That, and here but only here a comparison can be drawn with Spain, changed.) <BR/><BR/>As for free will, Farmer John, ask a Calvinist here: (My father is one), my grandfather was a pastor: they can be worse then 10 Turks in one place. <BR/><BR/>Check the Sonia blog for the Armenian Genocide debate: went up to 100 comments or so. (She inherited a young Turkish nutter from Beatroot). <BR/><BR/>Sonia, also a heroine of mine, though not because of her lesbianism (was she?). There is a Slovakian movie on its way about her...my other heroines being the wives of Tiszazug. <BR/><BR/>Z, Europe, unlike the US, cannot handle well the immigration. See France, (but also Germany): last time I was there there were worrying signs.Agneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14427327588753930703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11044955.post-65316881425186759932007-02-23T13:45:00.000-05:002007-02-23T13:45:00.000-05:00well, as you know, there was no "long run" for Arm...well, as you know, there was no "long run" for Armenians in which to go from a CHristian gov't to a secular gov't...but it probably would have happened, left to their own devices. A massacre has a messy way of dashing peoples' dreams of living outside a repressive religious regime which wants them dead just for who they are.<BR/><BR/>I'm one of those bizarre Armenians (though I identify as AMERICAN, i'm only using my background here to make my point) who keeps hoping and praying that the Turks NEVER EVER admit their dastardly deeds in the near genocide......it's one way Armenians can have their way in protecting a Europe which will be even MORE overrun with Muslims should the EU finally let Turkey in...Muslims who'd probably make their happy little way to America, too, in time.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11044955.post-64743220541387184132007-02-23T08:41:00.000-05:002007-02-23T08:41:00.000-05:00...I believe that what the "patriarch" saw, was wh......I believe that what the "patriarch" saw, was what the Pope recently saw in his recent "controversial statement" as well...that G_d doesn't use FORCE. He gave mankind "free will". <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insha'Allah" REL="nofollow">Islam</A> see's it differently. They feel it their duty to "correct" us infidels via FORCE.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11044955.post-31197884206698106352007-02-23T08:36:00.000-05:002007-02-23T08:36:00.000-05:00I don't think it was "wrong" or simply "provocativ...I don't think it was "wrong" or simply "provocative" for the Armenians to demand a Christian Administration. I think as a "first step", it was "natural", especially immediately coming out from under an "Islamic" administration. Over the "longer run", however, the transition to a more "secular" administration would have proven "wise". <BR/><BR/>I'm a firm believer in separation of church and state and a "minimum" State. I like the idea that the churches should minister to "coaxing" men to do the "right things" <I>Voluntarily</I> and training men's minds, and the State should only do things that require the use of <I>Force</I> and training their bodies. <BR/><BR/>In America, James Madison's "<A HREF="http://religiousfreedom.lib.virginia.edu/sacred/madison_m&r_1785.html" REL="nofollow">>Memorial and Remonstrance</A>" provides a very <I>wise</I> paradigm for separation and compromise that allows many different ideas to co-exist. <BR/><BR/>I'm also greatly in favor of "confederations" of "tribes" with amorphous and "tradable" boundaries over "nation states" with fixed-permanent boundaries (ala Swiss Cantons)... call me a "post-revolutionary" or "pre-civil-war" American. <BR/><BR/>I do, however, also believe that the evolution from confederacy to nation-state is a necessary and inevitable step... although it eventually leads to the State's dissolution as the State begins to assume "social responsibilities" NOT related to its' original purpose... which is the USE OF FORCE...when government instead becomes an "expedient tool" for wielding at large intractable societal problems by amateur social engineers (people voting in a democracy).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11044955.post-75846132052769738492007-02-22T23:43:00.000-05:002007-02-22T23:43:00.000-05:00farmer john, do you think it was wrong or just pro...farmer john, do you think it was wrong or just provocative that the Armenians said that their part of Turkey should be run by Christians?<BR/><BR/>I've never seen this position by Varjabedyan, and I think it's worth thinking about. One could say this today about American versus Sharia law in America. <BR/><BR/>Turkey WAS Armenia thousands of years before...it was the TUrks who moved into Armenian land, not the opposite. Mt. Ararat of NOah's Ark fame, is in Turkey NOW, but was ARMENIAN....is still considered Armenian.<BR/><BR/>thanks for that Patriarch's quote.....it probably played a big part in the provocation to kill 1.5 million Armenians over the thirty years following it........If the Christian ARmenians had won, and ruled just their part of Turkey with equality, justice and freedom, maybe they could have stayed alive...but not in a Muslim surrounding, I guess. Couldn't happen. <BR/><BR/>THis is really fascinating, that even an 1878 Patriarch of a church could see how (Judeo)Christian principles were all a really free people could live within.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11044955.post-8632862696074287572007-02-22T20:51:00.000-05:002007-02-22T20:51:00.000-05:00Beak....very interestingly, I think!, I went to a ...Beak....very interestingly, I think!, I went to a Jewish Iranian Synagogue in Beverly Hills a year or so ago to hear a Muslim discuss the threats to our country, etc...and you would not BELIEVE how many Armenian last names were on the walls in the entry area, people who were big donors to this Jewish temple. <BR/><BR/>Since Armenia was the very first CHristian nation, and Armenians are Orthodox from the days of the Nicean Council, it was pretty strange to see Armenian Jews! But, Iran has thousands of Armenians who go waaaay back there, and this, I guess (since there is a significant number of Jews there, too, or WERE) shows that people morph....change and adapt to their surroundings. It might be interesting to find some history on this. Maybe I"ll try.<BR/><BR/>YOu don't find any significant amount of Armenian Jews anywhere else in the world...maybe 12? (smile) Perhaps it's a function of the "ian" at the last name NOT signifying, in Iran, Armenian roots, but i doubt it, it's pretty standard!<BR/>zAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11044955.post-16100410527911481942007-02-22T20:32:00.000-05:002007-02-22T20:32:00.000-05:00from the "millet" link at Wikipedia:The Ottoman mi...from the "millet" link at Wikipedia:<BR/><BR/><I>The Ottoman millet system (citizenship) began to degrade with the continuous identification of the religious creed with ethnic nationality. The interaction of ideas of French revolution with the Ottoman Millet system created a breed of thought (a new form of personal identification) which turned the concept of nationalism synonymous with religion under the Ottoman flag. It was impossible to hold the system or prevent Clash of Civilizations when the Armenian national liberation movement expressed itself within the Armenian church. Patriarch Nerses Varjabedyan expresses his position on Ottoman Armenians to British Minister of Foreign Affairs, Lord Salisbury on April 13, 1878[5].<BR/><BR/>"It is no longer possible for the Armenians and the Turks to live together. Only a Christian administration can provide the equality, justice and the freedom of conscience. A Christian administration should replace the Muslim administration. Armenia (Eastern Anatolia) and Kilikya, are the regions, where the Christian administration should be founded... The Turkish Armenians want this... That is, a Christian administration is demanded in Turkish Armenia, as in Lebanon. [6]"</I>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11044955.post-75339193805468935942007-02-22T20:27:00.000-05:002007-02-22T20:27:00.000-05:00Yes, I see that now... they administered the Chris...Yes, I see that now... they administered the Christian <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millet_(Ottoman_Empire)" REL="nofollow">millet</A>/dhimmi system for the Turks. Unlike Spain, they weren't "occupied"... they simply experienced the vampire-like sucking out of their economic lifeblood through the dragomans...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11044955.post-20256846842138556712007-02-22T17:43:00.000-05:002007-02-22T17:43:00.000-05:00RedwineYou should have posted this interview on yo...Redwine<BR/><BR/>You should have posted this interview on your blog.beakerkinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06088967209404588378noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11044955.post-90121044034249967822007-02-22T17:01:00.000-05:002007-02-22T17:01:00.000-05:00Farmer John an Z have some good points.First of al...Farmer John an Z have some good points.<BR/><BR/>First of all, there is no point of comparison between the Ottoman occupation of eastern Europe and the <BR/>Islamic expansion in Spain. (The former being what we could call today imperialist, the latter Islamic indeed. Whenever in a Transylvanian coat-of-arms one sees a hand holding a sword, that means a more or less local hero aristocrat generally) fighting against the Turks: but we had had no Mio Cids (I actually read El cantar del Mio Cid anno decima) we had no real heroes here. Also, while "gyaur" means infidel, the Ottoman expansion was not as much Islamic as the Arab occupation of Spain was. <BR/><BR/>Romanian Muslims suffer no discrimination: they never did, as they had never been a key factor in Romanian politics. Very peaceful and hospitable people, and a pity they will be assimilated. A comparison could be drawn with Bosnian Muslims, before the war.<BR/><BR/>Z, indeed there was a large community here, appreciated and flourishing. Romania granted asylum to refugees after and probably during) the Armenian genocide. During the Ceausescu regime, Armenians schools were closed. Later, most Armenians left, most of them in the 80's - one of the worst decades in the history of Romania, according to many - the decade when the Germans, Hungarians and Jews left. AS to who is of Armenian origin or not.....I found out about a good friend of mine that her grandmother was an Armenian refugee from Turkey. I asked about her descent because she looks like a Bollywood actress. She is Armenian on both paternal and maternal side. <BR/><BR/>The US buying is not over, even if prices are scary: a sq meter of land, worth of 60 dollars in a major city 5 years ago, if in a central location in Bucharest, let's say, was worth 3000 euros last year. Impoverished people still sell, and as there is hope for further investments, there are buyers. However, I would be very careful with any transaction here. It would be worth investing in the villages,(the land is still extremely cheap in good rural areas), however, I would be careful: the poor infrastructure: no roads, no transport, etc may result in a huge financial loss. In the cities the situation is somewhat different: a sq meter worth 200 or 300 dollars in the main cities of Transylvania will be worth at least double if not triple in three years: the price of the apartments will go down, that of the land increase, depending on the location of course. Cluj (where I live) is now an extremely expensive city, even for Western standards. Hence, we have the most buyers from the West. <BR/><BR/>Farmer John, the Phanariotes were catapulted directly from Istanbul... The name comes from the district they lived there.Agneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14427327588753930703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11044955.post-43366870857207484952007-02-22T15:27:00.000-05:002007-02-22T15:27:00.000-05:00I wonder...dragoman.Now that's a real devil!I wonder...<A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragoman" REL="nofollow">dragoman</A>.<BR/><BR/>Now <I>that's</I> a real devil!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11044955.post-7312745559178216362007-02-22T07:03:00.000-05:002007-02-22T07:03:00.000-05:00Redwine,The word nowadays in Romanian means "devil...Redwine,<BR/><I>The word nowadays in Romanian means "devil", but it also meant "dragon".</I><BR/><BR/>Most study notes emphasize the meaning "devil," though the other meaning is mentioned.<BR/><BR/>Thank you for the clarification as to the differences from La Reconquista.Always On Watchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08192688822955022541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11044955.post-23021201709101750602007-02-21T18:27:00.000-05:002007-02-21T18:27:00.000-05:00ZIt is part of Sowell's hypothesis that he writes ...Z<BR/><BR/>It is part of Sowell's hypothesis that he writes about frequently. He points out Armenians, Lebanese, Gujaratis and Chinese all perform work as merchants in different parts of the world and face predjudice as a consequence<BR/><BR/>There are still Armenian and Assyrian Christians in Iran.beakerkinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06088967209404588378noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11044955.post-13503782840395572007-02-21T18:19:00.000-05:002007-02-21T18:19:00.000-05:00Why would that earn you a swat, Beak? Although I'...Why would that earn you a swat, Beak? Although I'm not real sure what you mean by "middleman minority"? <BR/><BR/>Yes, Armenians were the Jews of the Muslims in Turkey, no doubt about it. A friend works for a Jewish doctor who told her "the only person smarter than a Jew is a dumb Armenian!" (of course, I LOVED that!!) Smart, industrious, hard working, successful, they had all the earmarkings of a group of people others might like out of their way, no doubt about it....and the Turks sure felt that way!<BR/><BR/><BR/>Anyway, I'm surprised there are so few Armenians left in Romania, because there were quite a few, from what I understand.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11044955.post-84683135306696529322007-02-21T15:59:00.000-05:002007-02-21T15:59:00.000-05:00230,000 Moslems in Romania... much discrimination ...230,000 Moslems in Romania... much discrimination there? Assimilation?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11044955.post-51875594939902472472007-02-21T15:53:00.000-05:002007-02-21T15:53:00.000-05:00Wow! from Wikipedia...Based on the 2002 census da...Wow! from Wikipedia...<I>Based on the 2002 census data, there are also 6,179 Jews</I>... after a WWII cleanising of 280,000 - 380,000 that's maybe 3% left.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com